Warrington Corporation
1947
Leyland Titan PD1
Leyland H30/26R

EED 8 is a Leyland Titan PD1 and according to others on the web it is said to have a Leyland/Alexander H56R body new in 1947 to Warrington as their number 24. Maybe Leyland were busy at the time and it was a Leyland body assembled by Alexander.
It is at present owned by NWVRT and they have repainted it recently into Warrington colours. It was one of three half cabs in service during their 2014 rally at Kirkby.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

06/10/14 – 07:05

How close to a Leyland body is that?

Jim Hepburn

06/10/14 – 07:06

Alexanders built numerous bodies under sub-contract to Leyland – although the detailing on the Ribble Titans betrayed their non-Leyland credentials. I seem to remember reading that there was at least one other sub-contractor (Santus?) – and was SMT involved in this as well? SMT certainly built their own "Duple Vista" bodies on Bedford OBs which were virtually indistinguishable. Alexanders certainly built a "Leyland" body on a PD2 prototype.

David Oldfield

06/10/14 – 09:10

David, in a similar manner to the Alexander sub contract PD1s were also bodied by Samlesbury Engineering in Lancashire.

Chris Youhill

06/10/14 – 10:02

Thanks, Chris. I think maybe that it was Samlesbury that I had in no.

David Oldfield

06/10/14 – 10:02

Warrington 24 (EED 8) has been in preservation for many years in Warrington colours, and has indeed been subject to a recent repaint. Although, as has been said, the body was indeed built by Alexander, it is still ‘officially’ a Leyland body, and has always been described as such, in the same fashion as East Lancs bodies built by Bruce and later Neepsend were initially described as East Lancs products, although latterly Bruce and Neepsend have been used to describe them, so Leyland or maybe Alexander, but please not Leyland/Alexander!

Philip Lamb

06/10/14 – 13:54

…..and, of course, there is the long Alexander tradition of building other’s designs – sometimes under subcontract, sometimes not. (Glasgow’s "Weymann" bodies). This was replied to by the likes of East Lands and their R type clones!

David Oldfield

06/10/14 – 13:55

These Alexander-built bodies (the ones for Warrington at least) had a single window in their upper rear emergency exit – as opposed to Leyland’s more usual two – making the back end tend to resemble the prewar Leyland body. It is just discernible in this view. The other distinguishing feature was that normally they had four small sets of ventilation slots along the top of the cab door, unlike the standard Leyland product which had just two horizontal ones, one above the other. However the one pictured has the latter, so I presume must have acquired a secondhand door from a Leyland body at some point during its restoration.

John Stringer

17/02/15 – 15:13

Can some help me, I worked for Walsall Corporation Transport in the early 60s I remember Walsall buying 2 Warrington buses, I think they were
EED 8/9 is this correct?

Bruce Johnson

18/02/15 – 06:42

Bruce J, I’m afraid that I can’t personally answer your question, but I wondered if you could yourself answer a query which has gone round a few websites without being satisfactorily answered. It concerns Walsall’s lightweight Leyland PD2, 823 (TDH 770). I have seen it referred to as being ‘semi-automatic’ but I wonder if you could say if it
1) was a preselect, like the ex-London RTLs;
2) had a direct air system, such as became normal on two-pedal Leyland PD2s, PD3s, Tiger Cubs and Leopards;
3) had an electric gear selector, such as on early Atlanteans, Fleetlines, etc.
If you fail to get a response to your own query here, can I suggest that you try the message board at the sct61 site, it’s always a good place to have questions answered.

David Call

18/02/15 – 08:31

I think Walsall bought a couple of East Lancs bodied PD1s from Warrington , about the same time as the RTLs.

Steve Milner

19/02/15 – 15:55

The two Warrington Corporation Titans sold to Walsall Corporation were 100/01 (EED 9/10).
They were Titan PD1A with Bruce L27/26R new in 1947 and sold to Walsall in July 1959 as numbers 198/99, lasting until being sold for scrap in 1963 and 1964 respectively.
They were Warrington Corporation’s only two lowbridge buses.

Dave Farrier

12/03/15 – 06:44

I have been the owner of ex-Warrington PD1 EED 5 (fleet no.24) for nearly 40 years! Like EED 8, it has bodywork designed and produced by Leyland but assembled by Alexander – I have a copy of the letter from Warrington confirming this. The body on EED 5 is original and classed as a Leyland metal framed type: this has a cab door with four vents near the top and rear emergency door on the top deck containing two windows.

Phil Clark

12/03/15 – 17:03

In distinguishing between the Leyland and Alexander product on the PD1 chassis I have always used the style of the front panel of the cab as the determining feature. On the Leyland body it always conceals the mudguard, usually with the horn inserted as on the Warrington bus. The Alexander version has a shorter and slightly more set back panel allowing the bottom of the mudguard to protrude, as can be seen in the attached picture. This actually shows both PD1 (right) and PD2/1 (left) versions of the ‘pure’ Alexander product.
There are also variations in the shape of the nearside canopy. The Leyland style on the Warrington PD1 is a continuous curve from top front corner to where it meets the mudguard, projecting in front of the bulkhead. This is echoed on the Alexander PD2, but on the PD1 it goes straight back from the front corner with quite a short valance with a basically angled profile. There is no projection of the side panel in front of the bulkhead.
A further question is whether Alexander actually produced a highbridge version of the Leyland clone (as opposed to assembling Leyland parts). There are certainly none that I can locate in any of the SBG fleets, although they might have delivered to other fleets. Nothing at this period was supplied to any of the Scottish municipal fleets.

Alan Murray-Rust

13/03/15 – 07:10

The photo of CRG and AWG also seems to show 2 other diagnostic differences. The gap between the 2 blind boxes and the design of the top of the upper deck front windows.

John Lomas

13/03/15 – 12:49

The points you mention are diagnostic between the versions of the Alexander body; I was aiming to highlight the differences between the Leyland and Alexander products.

Alan Murray-Rust

05/05/15 – 07:23

I’ve seen EED 8 mentioned on here and just to let you know it’s back in Warrington and privately owned I’m trying to set up a page on Facebook for my husband it his is bus.

Trina

03/03/18 – 06:47

I am sorry to inform you that EED 8, which was preserved in Warrington, was destroyed in a fire on Thursday 1st March 2018. A sad loss.

Paul Mason

03/03/18 – 06:50

Sad to say Warrington Corporation no 8 EED 8 is no more, destroyed in fire at Fairbrothers Bewsey Warrington.

Anthony Mcdonnell

04/03/18 – 06:46

It is unfortunate that it had gone back to Warrington. www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/

John Lomas

29/03/18 – 06:02

It was very sad to see the destruction of EED 8 by fire, a tragic accident that has destroyed all but the chassis, running gear, cab and the front, but it was remarkable to see the engine start and run straight away so that it could be driven out of the shed. I wish Ray and colleagues every good wish in their desire to rebuild the vehicle and hope that one day we can re-unite EED 8 with my bus EED 5.

Phil Clark

30/03/18 – 07:53

How sad, Phil. What actually happened?

Chris Hebbron

02/04/18 – 07:30

I saw the bus on BBC North West news and the vehicle was still recognisable but sadly I think the best thing for EED 8 is to be sold as spares for another Leyland PD1. The only other option, which would effectively mean building a new bus would be to follow the example of WW2 utility Guy Arab CDR 679, which lost its original body but was fitted with another utilitybody, but such matches are rare. I wish the owner well and I’m sorry about the fire.

Paul Mason

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/10
Leyland (previously H33/26R)

This is my only photo of G56 in action doing what it did so often in the 1960s, recovering an errant PDR1/2 Atlantean in this case on a very wet day in Leopold Street, Sheffield.
G56 was converted from fleet number 666 as a gritter/tow wagon in 1966. Three of the batch were put on one side for conversion, 662 as a tower wagon to replace AEC Regent CWJ 410 and 667 as a driver trainer but in the event only the gritter conversion went ahead. It was a standard Sheffield conversion, lop off the top deck, take away the drop rear frame extension and install a doorway into what was the lower deck gangway. Random buses were modified in this way over the years when the Transport Department had to stand on its own feet when snow fell as Local Authority road gritting was not commonplace.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/02/14 – 13:55

This type of conversion continued into PTE days with at least one ex Doncaster bus getting the treatment in addition to a number of ex Sheffield PD3s and an ex Severn of Duncroft example.

Chris Hough

03/02/14 – 17:09

Small point. It was originally a 58 seater. The first 59 seaters were the 1957 PD2s (ECW, Roe and Weymann).
Nice atmospheric shot of Leopold Street in its one way phase with the Town Hall and Beethoven House (and Wilson Peck’s music shop) in the far distance and the Education Offices in the near distance. The latter have been redeveloped into upmarket boutiques and restaurants – the bit out of sight on the West Street corner was what originally was a college which eventually became Sheffield University. Leopold Street was named after the Prussian Prince Leopold.
The broken down Atlantean had its body built in Sheffield. Why did so many Atlanteans fail in the ’60s? Sheffield bought around 100 PDR1/2s between 1964 and 1966 – by far the worst and least reliable of all Atlantean variants!

David Oldfield

04/02/14 – 07:46

What a wonderful old workhorse this machine was; in the heady days when Atlanteans were hove to all over the city, with engine covers raised and pools of oil gathering underneath, I doubt G56 ever really cooled down. I still consider it a great shame that this splendid old PD2 ended up getting scrapped and not preserved, even though half of it was already missing!

Dave Careless

04/02/14 – 07:47

The problem with the PDR1/2 seemed to be in the combination of Leyland engine and Daimler gearbox which didn’t appear to work very well, was it something to do with the power produced by the Leyland engine being too much for a gearbox designed to be coupled with a Gardner slogger? Certainly the Manchester examples never sounded quite right compared to either a PDR1/1 or a Gardner engined Fleetline. I used to enjoy travelling on the back seat downstairs on a BND-C or END-D PDR1/2 for an exciting combination of excessive heat and interesting mechanical smells!

Michael Keeley

04/02/14 – 13:44

Apologies for submitting a photo with myself in it, but I thought in this instance it might be forgivable. On holiday from Canada in the spring of 1984, I caught up with G56 in a sorry looking state at the SYPTE Meadowhall Training Centre in Sheffield, out of use and presumably awaiting the scrapman. Unfortunately, there was nobody in authority to whom I could beg, plead or otherwise come to an agreement with about acquiring the much coveted registration plate! Note that somebody has already taken it upon themselves to ‘rescue’ the ‘Leyland’ radiator badge! OWB 866 was thirty two years old by this time, had worked hard all its life, and didn’t owe anybody anything.

Dave Careless

04/02/14 – 13:46

According to my information, the power outputs of the engines contemporary with the Atlantean PDR1/2 were as follows. The Gardner 6LX developed 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb. ft. at 1050 rpm. The corresponding figures for the later 6LXB were 180bhp at 1850 rpm, and 536 lb. ft. at 1050 rpm. For the Leyland engines in bus applications, these became, for the O600, 125 bhp at 1800 rpm, and 410 lb.ft. at 1100 rpm. The O680 gave 150 bhp at 1800 rpm and 450 lb. ft. torque at 1100 rpm. The ‘Power Plus’ O.680 gave 200 bhp at 2200 rpm, and 548 lb. ft. at 1200 rpm., but this engine was not employed in the Atlantean. These figures did sometimes vary with differing applications, but not by much. The Gardner engines were lighter than their Leyland equivalents, though not so compact in design. It is unlikely, therefore, that the torque of the Leyland engines was responsible for transmission problems in the PDR1/2.

Roger Cox

05/02/14 – 09:29

Here is an ex Birmingham PD2 in use as a towing wagon, but in this case by a scrapman. Photo taken at Walsall depot, 1970
I don’t remember what the vehicle was being towed, but appears to have had an argument with a low bridge.

Tony Martin

05/02/14 – 13:54

Note in the background, yet another quaint destination on Walsall Corporation No.315 : "Boney Hay".

Stephen Ford

06/02/14 – 06:36

It’s actually 815, a Leyland PD2/12 with Roe body. The destination is a reminder that Walsall, like neighbouring Wolverhampton, ran well outside its own boundaries.

Tony Martin

07/02/14 – 18:04

I wasn’t aware until this discussion that there was a known transmission problem with the PDR1/2. Leyland were aware of a weakness in the Daimler gearbox at that time, which caused them to refuse to supply PDR1/2s with O.680 engines in standard Atlantean fettle, but the standard O.600 should not have been a problem.
Manchester specified derated O.680s for durability rather than extra power, and had them rated at 130bhp. This was the same as the derated 6LXs in the Fleetlines, but I don’t have torque figures for either. As a passenger I did notice a tendency to slip in top gear, but that was no worse than on the Fleetlines.
I know exactly what Michael means about Manchester’s PDR1/2s not sounding "right", but this seems to have been confined to Manchester, and was probably due to them having strangulated O.680s instead of standard O6.00s.

Peter Williamson

07/02/14 – 18:46

The Daimler gearbox of that era was not a very robust unit with excessive band wear evident resulting from poor driving standards (2nd gear restarts/full throttle gear changes). The Mk3 version with wider brake bands made a significant improvement about 1971 followed by a ‘self wrapping’ 2nd speed band by 1975 (we called these the Mk4 although this was not an official Daimler/Leyland classification). The Fleetline used a trailing link coupling between flywheel output and gearbox input throughout its life. This was intolerant of misalignment usually down to failing rear engine mountings, again these were substantially improved by the early 70s. I have never seen under the bonnet of a PDR1/2, does anyone know whether it used the Daimler coupling or a short propshaft between flywheel and gearbox? The Leyland 600/680 engine was shorter than a 6LX giving more space. All sorts of reasons why the PDR1/2 was so poor compared with the standard PDR1/1. (Memory suggests that the Leyland engine Fleetline used a short propshaft – mind you, they were never as good as the Gardner version)

Ian Wild

27/02/14 – 07:34

The reason that the PDR1/2 Atlantean model suffered problems was due to the adoption of an Albion Lowlander dropped centre axle
Daimler supplied the right angle drive gearbox, as the Leyland PDR1/1 design could not be used.
In Sheffield a fleet of 99 PDR1/2 chassis were ordered. Disaster occurred in 1965 when a late duty to Worksop by an East Lancs bodied PDR1/2 shed its rear axle gearing when the Albion designed unit broke up. All the Sheffield PDR1/2 buses were returned for repair and modification over many months.

Keith Beeden

27/02/14 – 10:55

As far as I’m aware, the weakness of the PDR1/2 was in leakage from the flywheel oil seal – this would be consistent with ‘pools of oil’ and ‘slipping in top gear’. The oil seal itself was presumably every bit as good as the ones fitted to other marques, so the implication is that there was something about the transmission which upset the apple cart. I do recall that with the PDR1/2s there was noticeable vibration at moderate to high revs in the indirect gears.

David Call

28/02/14 – 07:52

That’s interesting Keith. I hadn’t realised that the rear axle in the PDR1/2 was such a problem. No doubt Sheffield’s hills exacerbated the problem. Does anyone know if the weakness in the rear axle also affected Lowlanders.

Ian Wild

30/11/14 – 10:29

In the picture of the Birmingham PD2 towing a bus at Walsall, could this be the bus behind. I had taken the photo at Wolverhampton Falling Road Depot in the late 1960s

Philip Savin

Yorkshire Traction Company Ltd
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Leyland H58R

A friend of my then wife to be was married at Worsborough Church on a Saturday in July 1968. Whilst we were outside the church, this YTC decker appeared on the service from Barnsley to Worsborough Park. Although 16 years old by this time the Leyland bodywork still looked in good condition – something I regularly found with Leyland bodywork on Sheffield vehicles. A couple of months later I joined PMT at Stoke on Trent, a fellow BET Group Operator where 1952 deliveries had long disappeared out of the fleet.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

04/11/13 – 07:16

These are sisters to STD 656-667, my favourite Leyland bodied PD2s. I think most people are agreed on the excellence of post war Leyland bodywork, and indeed the immediate pre war examples as well. Like all good designs, they also had an understated dignity. Wasn’t Worsborough the home of Arthur Scargill?

David Oldfield

04/11/13 – 13:05

I think he lived at Worsbrough Dale – a different bus route!

Geoff Kerr

04/11/13 – 13:30

This rather pleasant countryside between Barnsley & Sheffield was certainly Arthur’s patch, although he mined at Woolley, north of Barnsley. Nice atmospheric picture with the Bus, Herald, Minivan, & Farina BMC saloon- all to be themselves part of an unhappy marriage. There’s a West Riding Police House behind, detached- so Sergeants and upwards for the use of. Typical Tracky bus with multiple dome dents & that cherry paint everywhere except the windows- although here we have that metallic looking maroon that popped up now and again on radiators etc- perhaps wheels- is that right? An old comment about Tracky governor twiddling may explain why they all seemed slow and wheezy- they were like a familiar but well worn jacket.

Joe

04/11/13 – 16:58

…..but was that a governor on the engine – or the one in the big chair in the office…..?

David Oldfield

05/11/13 – 10:37

David O, here follows Pete’s "First Rule Of Office Life".
When the boss is away from the office – holiday, sick, meeting, or whatever – nobody notices. When the junior is away from the office – holiday, sick, College, whatever – the place falls apart.
Joe’s reference to governor must, therefore have been the one in the office!

Pete Davies

05/11/13 – 15:08

These Tracky PD2’s might be considered sisters to those Sheffield Titans 656-667, David, but would it be fair to perhaps go one step further and say they were estranged sisters?! Agreed they’re nice looking buses, those Leyland bodies were nothing if not elegant, but compared to those Sheffield PD2/10’s, there’s definitely something lacking here. Maybe it was the fact that the Sheffield ones had push-out vents in the front windows of both saloons, or could it have been the chromium wheel nut rings that they usually wore, at least until the latter part of their careers, making them appear just that bit smarter than your average PD2. Granted the Sheffield livery helped too, especially the variation that they were painted in, with the dark blue window surrounds, and when they had the grey roof applied as well, they were absolutely the bee’s knees.
Quite ironic really, that such classic machines spent most of their lives shuttling back and forth to Rotherham on the 69, passing miles and miles of smoke belching steelworks!

Dave Careless

05/11/13 – 15:52

Dave- the thing that people liked – I think- about the Sheffield cream livery was that it was an act of defiance against the tyranny or acceptance of muck! Does anyone remember "there will one day be salmon again in Salmon Pastures!" Are there now?

Joe

06/11/13 – 07:30

If there are, Joe, it would definitely be a case of "catch and release"! Given the state of the River Don, you certainly wouldn’t catch me eating one!

Dave Careless

06/11/13 – 07:32

Joe, you’re probably right, and one can admire Sheffield for daring to stand out against the acceptance of grime. But you know the old saying "Where there’s muck, there’s brass!" Sheffield and many other cities have lost an awful lot of the industry that produced the muck, and the jobs that went with it. A colleague of mine used to say the country is just being turned into a giant theme park. That view is certainly supported by the Noddy playbus "liveries" that we have today.

Stephen Ford

06/11/13 – 07:32

I agree, Dave, that "ours" were a cut above the rest – but I always thought that the old STD was a cut above the rest anyway.

David Oldfield

06/11/13 – 07:34

I hadn’t thought of it as a sister bus to Sheffield’s most elegant 656-667. Two immediate differences – Sheffield’s were on the 7’6" wide PD2/10 chassis (vs the Traction PD2/12 8’0" wide) and the Sheffield buses were the first in the fleet which had the then new smaller slightly more inset headlamps. These differences plus the upper deck front push open ventilators set 656 etc apart from other contemporary Sheffield deliveries. I remember the name Salmon Pastures but I can’t recall now just where it was on the River Don.

Ian Wild

07/11/13 – 15:27

Salmon Pastures was/is between Norfolk Bridge and Staniforth Road, Ian, that area around there, just before you get into Attercliffe. My auntie lived in T.W. Ward’s office building as a child (my grandparents were caretakers there, and had a live-in flat) just along Savile Street from the Wicker Arches, and she went to school at Salmon Pastures.

Dave Careless