Copyright Tony Martin

Wolverhampton Corporation
1948
Sunbeam W
Roe H32/28R (1960)

Passing through Sedgley on its way back to its home town, Wolverhampton 451 was nearing the end of its days in early 1967. Built in 1948 with a Park Royal body and rebodied in 1960, these vehicles saw out the once extensive Wolverhampton trolleybus system. It is working on route 58 from Dudley to Wolverhampton, which in its time had seen horse steam and electric trams and also, incidentally, the only trolleybus route to enter Worcestershire. The end came on March 5th 1967.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

14/03/13 – 09:02

Thanks, Tony for posting this reminder of how many Roe trolleybus rebuilds there were. It has always puzzled me why Roe got so much of this trolleybus rebuild business. Did they actively seek it, or was it simply available capacity? In any event, they were a smart addition to the street scene, but many sadly never had a full life, being prematurely scrapped on system conversion. Apart from Wolverhampton, and purely from memory, Roe rebuilt trolleybuses of this style operated in Doncaster, Teesside, Maidstone and Ashton. Anywhere else?

Paul Haywood

14/03/13 – 09:50

You partly answer your own question, Paul. Doncaster, Teesside, Wolverhampton and Ashton were established Roe customers. [Don't know about Maidstone.] Roe were experienced at bodying trolleybuses. QED. Go where you had experience of the expertise.

David Oldfield

14/03/13 – 10:01

They also rebodied 6 wheelers for Huddersfield and Rotherham.

Eric Bawden

14/03/13 – 15:47

Actually Paul, it wasn’t just trolleybuses. Roe also re-bodied hundreds of War-time utility Guys.

David Oldfield

14/03/13 – 15:48

I think the fact that Roe bodies were teak framed as opposed to metal framed had something to do with it. Trolleybuses had to pass some sort of earth leakage resistance test and with wood being an insulator rather than a conductor of electricity wooden framing aided the bodywork in complying with the earth leakage requirements. Can anybody confirm?

Philip Halstead

14/03/13 – 15:49

David, the situation regarding Ashton and Roe is not as you describe. Ashton only bought two Roe bodies on new chassis prior to the first PD2s delivered in 1960, these being 65 and 66 on Sunbeam W chassis which were delivered in 1946 when their traditional suppliers, Crossley and English Electric, were unavailable for different reasons.
When it was decided to rebody wartime trolleybuses in 1954/5 the work went to Bond who rebodied 2 Sunbeams, being 63 and 64. In 1956 eight new BUT trolleybuses were ordered and bodied by Bond and it had been intended that wartime Sunbeams 61 and 62 would be rebodied by the Wythenshawe concern but the company closed so the contract was put out again to tender which was won by Roe in 1957.
The last motor bus deliveries to Ashton prior to this was for the Bond bodied Guy Arabs which were originally numbered 37-40 and delivered in 1956.
The 1957 Roe bodies for the Sunbeams must have impressed because the next vehicles ordered were thee 1960 PD2s and Ashton stayed with Roe until 1967 when East Lancs bodied Leopards were ordered followed by Northern Counties bodied Atlanteans in 1969.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/03/13 – 15:50

So if both Wolverhampton and Dudley were then in Staffordshire, where did the t/buses stray into Worcestershire, Tony?
Although I think much of Ted Heath’s county re-organisation was wrong, there were some mismatches. It was bizarre that enormous Birmingham was in Warwickshire, with its small, peaceful, market town.

Chris Hebbron

14/03/13 – 16:14

Would love to know the answer to whether Roe actively canvassed the trolleybus rebodying business or just that were a very good bodybuilder. The Roe bodies always looked elegant and so up-to-date on trolleybuses and very modern for the time.
Attached is one of my first colour photos of Ashton 61 in Piccadilly, Manchester in the last week of trolleybuses.

Ian Lynas

14/03/13 – 17:31

Well Ian. Regardless of whether they did any canvassing they were a very good body-builder – one of the best.

David Oldfield

15/03/13 – 08:29

Chris H, Dudley was a County Borough in a detached portion of Worcestershire. Before the political meddlers leapt in, parts of the Lake District were in a detached portion of Lancashire – 3/4 of the Windermere shoreline was, but the water itself was entirely in Westmorland.

Pete Davies

15/03/13 – 08:30

Philip’s point on earthing. When I first started bus work in 1967, I was told by one of Newcastle Corporation’s drivers that you could always tell a former Trolleybus conductor by the way they boarded a bus, apparently they would never grab hold of the centre platform rail

Ronnie Hoye

15/03/13 – 08:37

The newish Roe rebodies on Doncaster’s second hand trolleys found themselves new motor-bus chassis and half cabs when the trolleys were withdrawn and some of these chassis in turn were quite old- but some were brand new. You could tell which they were- as remarked here before- because they had the old cable trunking in the upstairs window frames and some of the bodies were a bit proud & vertical at the front. I also think that the Corporation did a lot of the conversion work themselves?

Joe

15/03/13 – 17:55

Bradford Corporation Passenger Transport obtained sanction in November 1950 for 12 new bodies for their 1938/39 AEC 661Ts and Karrier E4s, but an offer from C H Roe to supply 7′ 6" wide bodies at a lower cost than those previously supplied for 8′ 0" wide BUTs 740 – 751 was rejected by the City Council, who insisted on completive tender. The successful company was Crossley Motors who supplied them in 1952 and a photo of one of these trolleybuses has previously been posted on this web site by me and can be seen here.
Clearly this is evidence that C H Roe was actively seeking business, but had their offer been accepted, Bradford may well have followed a different trolleybus re-bodying route from 1956 onwards.

Richard Fieldhouse

16/03/13 – 07:45

Thx, Pete D. I recall when struggling with Hardknott Pass in the Lake District some years ago, coming across a tall stone post with ‘Lancashire’ on it, many miles from where I would have expected to see it in ‘old money!’

Chris Hebbron

16/03/13 – 07:47

Thanks, Richard, for this interesting information regarding Bradford and Roe’s failed attempt to obtain the trolleybus rebuild business. It has always puzzled me why Bradford went to East Lancs in such a big way and this helps to explain it. Indeed, it would have been fascinating to have seen Roe’s version of the last trolleybus rebuilds in Bradford. Smart as the 1962 East Lancs rebuilds were, I venture to suggest that a trolleybus version of the Leeds 1962 *** CNW front-entrance bodies would have been something really special.

Paul Haywood

16/03/13 – 16:58

Puzzle no longer, Paul: Bradford was proud, trad Bradford and CH Roe were in LEEDS! The twain did not always meet and the good burghers might prefer to look west for their tracklesses as it wasn’t really safe to go further east than English Electric at Thornbury.

Joe

Copyright Tony Martin

Walsall Corporation
1950
Sunbeam F4
Park Royal H30/26R

On a snowy day in February 1967 Walsall Corporation trolleybus 353 is on a short working to Leamore. The vehicle was an ex-Ipswich Corporation Sunbeam F4 with Park Royal body which was acquired with seven others due to the closer of the Ipswich Trolleybus system in 1962/3. In the background is the Carl Street entrance to Birchills depot.
But don’t worry, the Summer of Love is just around the corner! (Not that it ever reached Walsall…)

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

———

04/01/13 – 06:49

The Ipswich destination box was an odd shape and it is strange how Walsall retained it, even going to the trouble of having blinds made to fit. With Walsall’s flair for bodywork rebuilding one would have thought they would have rebuilt these to their standard layout.
Accommodating the long word ‘Wolverhampton’ on these blinds meant writing the word diagonally.

Philip Halstead

Copyright Tony Martin

Walsall Corporation
1951
Sunbeam F4
Brush H30/26R

Former Walsall Corporation 341, by August 1970 owned by the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive, leaves Walsall Bus Station for Blakenhall. It is a Sunbeam F4 with much rebuilt Brush body and should be showing route 15. In the background is former Birmingham City 2593 registration JOJ 593, a 1951 MCW H54R bodied Guy Arab IV, transferred to Walsall in February 1970 with others to partially replace the trolleybuses, though it and its sisters were as old as the vehicles they replaced!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

———

07/12/12 – 06:55

Nice view, Tony. Thanks for sharing. Others on this site have commented on the full front Vs half cab arrangement of motor buses, citing the amount the driver could or could not see on his nearside – among other factors – yet MOST trolley buses were full front.

Pete Davies

———

07/12/12 – 08:11

Just speculation but I wonder if the use of full fronts on most trolleybuses was to protect the control gear from water ingress as this was generally on the bulkhead where the engine would be on a motor bus.

Phil Blinkhorn

———

07/12/12 – 08:12

Surely, Pete, the driver of a Trolley knew that the nearside window was the limit of its width, whereas the problem in the half cab was that the front nearside corner disappeared if a high bonnet obscured the mudguards? Anyone know first hand? Presumably the mirror, if mounted on the nearside corner was a help. Do you remember when you, the driver, could see the front of your car?!

Joe

———

07/12/12 – 09:56

Actually, Joe, the discussion I remember was about how much less the driver could see with a full front! In the event, the rear engine came along, with the door directly opposite the driver, and the argument was stifled. There was a similar sort of discussion when I was working, and about half the folk who commented said they liked the tip-up seats in shelters and the other half hated them. They went off the market after too many people fell off and the makers’ insurance company jacked up the premium. In a way, I suppose, those who hated the things won.

Pete Davies

———

07/12/12 – 13:34

I wonder if the issue with full front buses was steaming up in that awkwardly inaccessible left hand cabin. This would probably be more of an issue with the rising emissions from internal combustion engines than the drier warmth from electrical machines. This would not be a problem with rear engine buses of course, and the passenger door gave easy access to the nearside front screen if necessary. I guess everyone will know that the original fleet of Notts & Derbys trolleybuses were half-cabs.

Stephen Ford

———

08/12/12 – 09:26

I have heard that the cabs of Walsall’s F4As, with their curved glass windscreens gave excellent visibility. There is one behind 341 above and my photo of 872 which is elsewhere on this site.

Tony Martin

———

08/12/12 – 09:27

A lot of early t/buses were halfcab, because they probably thought they should look like buses. Some even had fake radiators. The 1931 London ‘Diddlers’ were halfcab with a central headlamp on the bonnet front, a la trams!

Chris Hebbron

———

08/12/12 – 09:28

The Notts & Derby trolleybuses that Stephen refers to had the motor and associated electrical equipment under the bonnet (with ‘dummy’ radiator with the AEC/English Electric badge attached). The London United ‘Diddler’ trolleybuses also had the motor under the bonnet but no attempt was made to provide a ‘dummy’ radiator but there was a single headlamp in the panel where a radiator would have been. There were other instances of trolleybuses with half cabs – Birmingham Corporation for example. Most trolleybuses had the motor located between the chassis side members under the lower saloon floor with a short prop shaft to the rear axle. With this arrangement there was no need to provide a half cab arrangement and the nearside of the full width cab was usually taken up with the contactor cabinet, although some operators, like London Transport, opted to have the contactor cabinet mounted on the nearside of the chassis with access via flap in the vehicle’s ‘skirt’ (or ‘valance’ – depending on which term you choose to use).

Michael Elliott