Old Bus Photos

Manchester Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – JND 619 – 3218

Manchester Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2 - JND 619 - 3218

Manchester Corporation
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/3
Metro-Cammell H32/26R

Seen in Piccadilly in August 1969 in the final months of Manchester Corporation ownership is No 3218, JND 619, one of a batch of Leyland PD2/3 buses purchased in 1951. Despite appearances, the bodywork is not by Crossley, being instead of the then standard Manchester design built by Metro-Cammell. Having given some eighteen years of service to Manchester, this bus survived to pass into the SELNEC era, though not, I suspect, for long.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


23/07/18 – 06:58

This would be on a rush hour full service length extra on which these and the similar looking PD1/3s, which were withdrawn between 1967 and 1968, were regular performers. According to the official SELNEC fleet allocation these PD2/3s were not taken into stock, although Eyre and Heaps in the Manchester Bus have all but 3224, withdrawn in April 1969, transferred to SELNEC. What I suspect happened was that the vehicles were deemed withdrawn at midnight, MCTD having ceased at 23.59 on October 31 1969, SELNEC coming into being at 00.01 on November 1 – such are the legal niceties!

Further to my previous comments, the SELNEC operational fleet allocation on formation has 300 PD2s from Manchester and 103 from Salford in the Central Area fleet listing. No Manchester and Salford PD2s were allocated to other divisions on formation. The SELNEC stock allocation i.e vehicle assets taken over in whatever state, lists 501 PD2s in the Central area. Taking Eyre and Heaps listings in the Manchester Bus and in the Salford lists available, the number of PD2s owned by those undertakings on October 31 1969 was 387 in Manchester and 103 in Salford giving a total of 490. The situation would seem to have been that 67 PD2s from the MCW and Leyland bodied JND registered batch in the sequence 3200-3299 were transferred as assets but immediately deleted from the available fleet along with 1 from the Northern Counties batch 3300-3329 and 19 from the Leyland bodied batch 3330-3369. There is photographic evidence of one or more of these batches pressed into SELNEC service. There is however a discrepancy of 11 PD2s between the 501 listed as assets and the total of 403 operational and 87 midnight withdrawals. If anyone can find the missing 11, given that as far as I can ascertain, the assets of the Central division did not include any transfers in from elsewhere at the time of formation on November 1 1969 I would be grateful.

Phil Blinkhorn


24/07/18 – 07:25

I regularly travelled to and from school on these buses between 1964 and 1967. I understand that the shallower windows on each side at the rear were to support the platform which was not supported underneath as on most buses. I have read that Metro Cammell came up with this design, although Crossley adopted it as standard for a while.

Don McKeown


25/07/18 – 06:11

Manchester certainly got its moneys worth out of these buses and although quite elderly they were used on many lengthy prestige routes until the end of MCTD. They regularly appeared on the 17, 24 and 90 in Rochdale by which time the joint operating partners, Rochdale and Oldham on the 24 and 90 were using more modern stock. I always found them rather drab buses to travel in with lots of dark woodwork and a fairly depressing moquete pattern for the seats. And of course like most buses of that time the upper deck reeked of stale tobacco smoke. I think the experience of 1950’s upper deck travel so Mum could have a fag made me a life-long non-smoker!

Philip Halstead


26/07/18 – 06:45

I was living on Barlow Moor Road in Didsbury in 1969 and 1970, and I remember 3218 as being the only one of these at Parrs Wood garage – very much the odd one out; always slightly surprised when it turned up, which it often did on rush hour extras.

Steve Owen


27/07/18 – 06:45

I have slides of 3237, 3246 and 3255 taken in Manchester on October 29 1970. They did not sport the green SELNEC Central S.
They were showing the following route numbers 64X, 63X, and 62X respectively.

Stephen Bloomfield


29/07/18 – 07:36

Stephen, the Central flash was Blue.
Green was for the Southern Division, Magenta was the Northern Division, and the Orange was for the Coaches, Parcels, and Central activities. Brown was later used for the Cheshire Division, the ex North Western Road Car Company.

Stephen Howarth


05/08/18 – 07:52

I was using rush-hour limited-stop services along the Hyde Road corridorout of Chorlton Street bus station for a time between 1970 and ’71 and several of these "32xx" PD2s turned up regularly on routes such as the "124" and "207/208/209". The buses were run-down inside (torn-rexine) and were probably living outside the Hyde Road depot in the yard,awaiting the chop.

John Hardman


05/08/18 – 09:41

John, you are most likely correct in your assumption as to the source of the rush hour extras. SELNEC would have preferred not to have taken any vehicle assets over fifteen years old but the legislation demanded that the undertakings absorbed were absorbed lock, stock and barrel. The distinction that was made between the operational fleet and the total vehicle assets was quickly blurred due to the need to move vehicles around the divisions to introduce OMO and the need for extra vehicles caused by delays in deliveries. It would seem that the best runners from the withdrawn stock that still had valid certificates of fitness were temporarily relicensed to fill rush hour gaps. It was estimated that in 1965 one third of the Manchester fleet was retained for rush hour duties, generally vehicles over fifteen years old and apart from the 1953/1954 Daimlers which SELNEC took into the operational fleet, all those older vehicles in the Manchester fleet in 1969 were originally listed as non-operational. In passing it is worth commenting that the MCW PD2s outlived the newer Northern Counties bodied batch from 1953.

Phil Blinkhorn


07/08/18 – 06:06

I moved to Manchester to become a student in October 1970 and I am absolutely certain that MCTD 32xx series buses were in service then and at least for a few months afterwards. I do not recall seeing any 33xx series fleet numbers and I assumed that they had been withdrawn previously although at that stage of my university career I admit that I did not go far off the Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road axis.

Peter Cook


08/08/18 – 06:06

I became a Manchester student a year after Peter, and didn’t move far off the Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road axis either. My abiding memory is of the 1953/4 Daimlers on the 44/46. I do not remember the PD2s at all.

David Oldfield


09/08/18 – 07:21

Regarding Phil’s comment about a third of the Manchester fleet, I must admit I’ve always understood it to be the other way round – i.e. that Manchester’s peak problem was so severe that only one third of the fleet was out all day, with the majority being confined to rush-hour extras, rush-hour services, works services, works variants and works contracts. But I’ve believed that for so long now that I’ve no idea where I got it from.

Peter Williamson


10/08/18 – 07:12

Regarding Peter Williamson’s comments on the proportions of the Manchester fleet, the situation as he has it was certainly the case up until the late 1950s. From then things started to change. Rapidly increasing car ownership was the main factor but there were others. New vehicles delivered from 1957 had around 17% more seats than those they replaced and the eventual inclusion of reasonable numbers of Fleetlines and Atlanteans saw this figure rise to over a third more seats per bus. Diesel trains replacing steam on commuter lines and the electrification of lines to Crewe saw faster, cleaner and competitively cheap trains and the decimation of the Crossley fleet ahead of normal life expectancy were all factors which changed the the fleet use proportions. By 1969 the use of private cars had massively increased over that of 1960 and with far further large capacity vehicles in service, including the Mancunians, the need for a large rush hour fleet had diminished further.

Phil Blinkhorn


12/08/18 – 07:18

I’ve spent some time trying to reconcile the number of PD2s the SELNEC Central Division inherited and operated given the confusing numbers published in Eyre and Heaps The Manchester Bus, Manchester and Salford – One Hundred Years of Municipal Transport, Stewart Brown’s Greater Manchester Buses and my own sources from MCTD, Salford and SELNEC from 1968 through 1970. My own notes show that SELNEC intended to reduce its fleet of traditional front engined vehicles in short order and introduce OMO as soon as possible – an aspiration repeatedly delayed by late deliveries, the need to write down assets and union negotiations. It is a fact backed by written information from SELNEC, that SELNEC Central Division required an Operational Fleet for daytime running of 400 PD2s to cover services, maintenance, reserve vehicles for breakdowns and education departments’ needs. The Operational Fleet as far as PD2s were concerned was restricted to vehicles of less than 15 years old, in fact the oldest vehicles were the 1956 3400 series PND registered ex Manchester PD2s. Manchester contributed 300 PD2s, Salford 103. No vehicles to the best of my knowledge were imported to Central from other divisions. In addition to the Operational Fleet it appears Central had a fleet of licenced, driver training and withdrawn PD2s, all transferred from MCTD. The Manchester Bus in its vehicle listings at the back of the book infers the PD2s older than 15 years old that were transferred to SELNEC were fully licenced vehicles. Manchester and Salford a Century of Municipal Transport breaks down the transfer into driving school and withdrawn vehicles, as can be found on page 301 of The Manchester Bus, leading to the conclusion that the withdrawn vehicles were delicenced at midnight on 31 October/1 November 1969. However, the Eyre and Heaps publications disagree with each other in terms of numbers and because Manchester and Salford a Century of Municipal Transport was published much later than the last edition of The Manchester Bus, I have taken the latter’s figures. Central still required a reasonable number of rush hour extras and the older PD2s that were licenced, were thus employed. Most were withdrawn during 1970, the last of the pre 1956 PD2s in early 1971. The next discrepancy is that Greater Manchester Buses states that 501 PD2s were inherited in total and does not break down the numbers.
MCW Manchester Standard bodied PD2s 3200-3223 and 3225-3264 were transferred as licenced – total 64.
Leyland bodied PD2s 3287/94/99 transferred as licenced – total 3
3266/71/75/78/88/90 transferred as driving school – total 6
3265/67/69/70/72/77-79/82/89/92-95/97 transferred as withdrawn assets – total 15
Northern Counties bodied PD2s 3323 transferred as licenced – total 1
3324/25 transferred as driving school – total 2
Leyland bodied PD2s 3331/32/34/37/39/40/42/45-47/50-52/54/56-60/64 transferred as licenced – total 20
The overall PD2 assets transferred, if the later figures compared to the previous figures I had are to be believed number 514, now 13 more than noted in Greater Manchester Buses. Anyone else want to have a shot at sorting this?

Phil Blinkhorn


13/08/18 – 05:57

I’m surprised to read that there was a requirement specifically for 400 PD2s. What about the contemporary Daimler CVG6s (and CCG6s? Surely there would be some overlap between these two types?

Don McKeown


14/08/18 – 06:00

Unlike the situation with the PD2s, there was no cut off for Daimlers older than 15 years as the total of front engined Daimlers required for the Operational Fleet was 368 vehicles and to achieve this 48 CVG6s from Salford dating from between 1950 and 1952, 67 CVG6s from Manchester dating from 1950-1951 and all 110 of the 4400 batch of CVG6s and CVG5s from 1953 to 1955 were taken into all day service, though almost all of the 1950-1952 CVG6s from both city’s fleets had gone by the end of 1970, penny numbers of the Salford examples provided rush hour extras in early 1971. Again there are discrepancies in the published information. Greater Manchester Buses has it that 368 CVGs in total were taken by the Central Division but adding the requirement of 368 vehicles to the withdrawn and driving school assets taken over, the total is 407. the breakdown is as follows:-
Salford CVG6 415/16/18/25/28/29/33/39/57/61/63/65/70/73/78/83/84/85/88/98/506/07/11/21/22/24/25/27-29/31/33/35-41/43-45/47/48/52-54/60 Total 48 to Operational Fleet.
419/22/58/64/66/67/69/77/502/08-10/12/13/15/26/49/50 Total 18 taken over as withdrawn
Manchester CVG6/CVG5 4111/18/22-37/39-48/50-74/76-89/4400-4509 Total 177 to Operational Fleet
4101 Total 1 to driving school
4106-4108/4112-4116/19/21 Total 20 to driving school.
Post 1955 Daimlers CVG5 and CVG6s taken over were:
ex Salford 111-146/189-190 Total 38
ex Manchester 4510-4654 Total 105
It would seem the Greater Manchester Bus, unlike with the PD2s, only listed the number of CVGs in the Operational Fleet

Phil Blinkhorn


 

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Halifax Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – KWX 19 – 356

Halifax Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2 - KWX 19 - 356

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Leyland L27/26R

On the left of this photo taken in PTE days in December 1977 is the last operational ex Todmorden JOC PD2, as Halifax 356 which had been a Driver Training bus since withdrawal from passenger service. On the right is its replacement – ex Halifax 279, a 1965 Roe bodied Leyland PD2/37. This is in its new guise as Driver Training bus T7. By this date the PTE had introduced a dedicated training bus livery.
T7 was later sold to a driving school in the West Midlands. 356 was put on one side for preservation but was eventually scrapped as a lost cause, a sad loss considering what can be achieved nowadays.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild


14/05/18 – 07:18

The heaters on Halifax MCW PD2s were very good for about a year. Being under the seats at floor level they sucked in lots of dust which blocked the warm air flow. It was a long job to clean them out. Just blowing the dust out with an air line covered the saloons in dust. The cleaning job was also unhealthy so nobody would do it. The old round Clayton heaters being fitted well above floor level didn’t gather much dust and remained in working order much longer. At Blackburn we used to place wet sacks over the heater unit to catch the dust when blowing it out with an airline, this was not ideal but kept some heat in the saloon during winter!

Mr Anon


17/05/18 – 07:56

The 1965 Roe bodied Leyland PD2s & the CCP registered Park Royal bodied Regent IIIs are my all time favourite Halifax D/Ds, its a great pity that no examples of either type are in running order in the UK. I did see a former Halifax Roe bodied PD2 still in its Metro training bus guise at Winkleigh a few years ago, but I could not tell which one it was.
Another of the Roe bodied PD2s number 62 was put back in full Halifax green, orange & cream attire, but it did not spend long in preservation & it was exported to either the USA or Canada in the early 1980s. Does it still exist?

Andrew Spriggs


02/07/18 – 07:12

In 1974 my wife worked in the personnel dept. of the then newly formed West Yorkshire Metropolitan Transport Executive. She, they had to send a memo out to Ex Tod crews that taking their buses home at lunchtime was no longer permissible.

Geoff Bragg


05/07/18 – 06:21

Wonderful story, Geoff. Big business versus small business destroying the personal touch, as ever!

Chris Hebbron


11/07/18 – 07:17

The 1965 Roe bodied Leyland PD2s of Halifax were wonderful buses, very solid in the best Roe tradition. It is interesting to relate that a very similar batch of buses were supplied to Ashton Under Lyne in the same year & two years later Lincoln received a batch. Lincoln had received two batches of Roe bodied Atlanteans in 1964/5 & then reverted to PDs in 1967. I would say these Roe bodied PD2s were my favourite double deckers, the longer HBU registered Oldham Corporation Roe bodied PD3s of 1964 were also firm favourites, sadly one was lost when it turned over on a roundabout in Rochdale in 1967.

Andrew Spriggs


12/07/18 – 07:18

The Oldham bus which turned over was 108 HBU.
It turned over in Oldham, at the bottom of West Street, after being hit by a tanker, not in Rochdale.
It was operating the Rochdale to Ashton service 9.

Stephen Howarth


13/07/18 – 07:37

I drove a number of these Roe bodied PD2s whilst at Halifax when they were new, and I agree that they were in a greatly superior class to their Weymann contemporaries, except in one particular. Being a quite long legged specimen, I found that the drivers’ seats on the Roe bodies did not go back as far as those on the Weymann examples, making them less comfortable to drive.

Roger Cox


14/07/18 – 07:01

I know that Mr. Hilditch was, shall we say, a traditionalist in his views and requirements but why did he specify holes in the bonnet sides on these vehicles? It seems like a throwback to the 1940s, did they serve any practical purpose?

Chris Barker


GGH inherited this order from the previous (Leyland besotted) GM, Richard le Fevre, who, despite being on the verge of retirement, chose to saddle his successor with his Leyland legacy. Because of the extended strike at Weymann, where some of these PD2s were heled up for months, Geoffrey Hilditch managed to divert those chassis that were still accessible to Roe for bodying. The apertures in the bonnet were for access to the oil filler cap and dipstick, and this was a Leyland option that appeared on all the Halifax PD2s and PD3s.

Roger Cox


17/07/18 – 06:29

Believe me those holes are invaluable for oil checking. I have a couple of vehicles with solid sides and they are a pain. In service you needed conscientious mechanics to avoid engine seizures.

Roger Burdett


 

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Southdown – Leyland Titan – RUF 189/5 – 783/5

Southdown - Leyland Titan - RUF  189/5 - 783/5

Southdown - Leyland Titan - RUF  189/5 - 783/5

Southdown Motor Services
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Beadle H59RD

There have been comments over the years about the last Beadle double deck bodies to be built delivered to Southdown in Nov/Dec 1956 but few photos. To try and rectify this I attach two photos of this batch No’s 777-788 Reg No’s RUF 177-188, That of 783 was taken outside Pevensey Road bus station, whilst not a very good photo I included it as this bus was later converted into a tree lopper after an accident at I believe Jarvis Brook railway bridge which was near Southdown’s Crowborough garage, I heard that the unfortunate driver was an Maidstone & District man trying to reach the garage. That of 785 was taken in Pool Valley Brighton when being reversed on to the stand for the Brighton local service 38 which later became the regular haunt of the RESL/6L’s the route had a significant amount of hill work. Believed to have been built by Beadle on Park Royal frames, the easy way to tell these near identical batches apart was the Beadle’s had sliding ventilators and the Park Royal’s had half drops.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave


30/01/18 – 16:33

In 1956/7, both NGT and Newcastle Corporation took delivery of batches of very similar Park Royal bodied vehicles.
Those of NCT were all AEC Regent V.
The 1956 NGT group vehicles were GUY Arab IV, and the intake for 1957 were R/D versions on a Leyland PD2/12 chassis.
Although they looked very similar to these, one notable difference was that both NCT & NGT were all four bay construction, whereas these are five.
Was that Southdown spec?

Ronnie Hoye


01/02/18 – 07:10

guy

Further to Ronnie Hoye’s post, Northern took 28 Guy Arabs with Park Royal bodies in 1956, 20 for the main fleet and 8 for Tynemouth. There were 10 PD2s in 1957 for Northern. All were 63 seaters.

regent

Newcastle took 20 high bridge examples in 1956, 137-156 (XVK 137-156) and 20 in 1957, 157-176 (157-176 AVK) ten of which were low bridge. The high bridge vehicles seated 62 and the low bridge vehicles 58.

Living north of the Tyne, I was more familiar with the Tynemouth and Newcastle buses. I thought they were well proportioned buses, but the interior finish on the Newcastle vehicles left a lot to be desired, red painted lining panels, narrow seats and a distinct lack of ventilation. Tynemouth’s vehicles were far better finished in my view.
A couple of photos are attached illustrating a Northern vehicle and one of Newcastle’s 1957 high bridge buses.

R Slater


02/02/18 – 05:37

Your not wrong, the NCT vehicles were positively spartan in comparison to those of the NGT Group.
It was the same story with the Orion bodied Leyland PD’s that followed these. Every expense seems to have been spared on the NCT vehicles, with their painted metal interiors, whereas the NGT were covered.
Those of Tynemouth & Wakefields were finished to an even higher standard with moquette upholstered seats.
Getting back to the Park Royal GUY Arab IV’s. As you say, Tynemouth & District had eight of them, FT 9408/15 208/15 I started as a driver at Percy Main in 1967, so by now they were nearly 11 years old, but they were VERY reliable, and for all their age they were a delight to drive, but how much better would they have been if they ha been fitted with a G6LW rather than a 5?
214 was written off after an accident, and dismantled for spares, and the remainder were transferred to Northern in 1968.
By this time we had quite a number of the superb Alexander bodied CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines, so I was probably in a minority, but I for one was sorry to see them go.

Ronnie Hoye


08/02/18 – 14:46

I could go on a real nostalgia fest here, Ronnie. Tynemouth was my local fleet. My memories date from the mid 1950s when I can just about remember the ECW rebodied Leyland TD5s and the trio of AEC Regents rebodied by Pickering. Wallsend locals were largely in the hands of successive batches of Guy Arabs. I used these services to go the the Buddle school and later the grammar school. I recall end of school day transport at the Buddle was provided by four vehicles, two for High Farm and two for Sunholme, usually older vehicles but sometimes newly overhauled vehicles doing what I assume were running in turns. The Guys gave way to Leyland PD2s and PD3s, Atlanteans and Fleetlines. I’ll shut up now!

Richard Slater


11/02/18 – 06:23

Like you Richard, our school bus was either one of the Pickering rebodied pre war Regents or, occasionally, one of the Weymann bodied, early post war variety. As the bus came off an earlier "Workmen"s service it was usually late,a source of delight to we pupils, but consternation to the school.
In 1957, I started to attend Tynemouth High School, where it was decided we lived near enough to walk to school. 4X4s were rare and mostly restricted to the farming community in those days!
I remember the ECW rebodied TD5s also largely because they were quite fast and refined mechanically, for a bus of that era.They seemed to spend a lot of their time on the 5 Whitley Bay (St. Mary’s Lighthouse) to Newcastle (Haymarket)until about 1955, when they I think (its all a long time ago now) they were largely replaced on that route by the 1955 Orion bodied Guys.

William Mill


 

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