Old Bus Photos

Red & White – Bristol MW – SWO 986 – UC758

Red & White - Bristol MW - SWO 986 - UC758

Red & White Services
1958
Bristol MW6G
ECW C39F

Here are two more views indicating what a difference a coat of paint makes, especially if it’s the same colours applied in a different style on the same vehicle. SWO 986 was new to Red & White in 1958. It is a Bristol MW6G with ECW C39F bodywork and – in the first view above – the fleet number is UC758. We see it in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979.

Red & White - Bristol MW - SWO 986 - DS758

In this second view it is in what many of us would consider to be more of a coach livery, but with fleet number DS758. It is seen here leaving Winchester Bus Station on 1 January 2009.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


 

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Red & White – Gloster-Gardner – WO 7518

Red & White - Gloster-Gardner - WO 7518
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Red & White Services 
1932
Gloster-Gardner 6LW
Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Ltd C30R

Photographed when new, here’s a rare Gloster-Gardner coach, in Red & White Services livery, the company which collaborated with the Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Works in the production of these vehicles. The robust chassis were fitted with overdrive and could achieve 53mph and 20mpg. The robust chassis were designed to take the Gardner diesel engine from the outset.
In 1932/33, Red & White Services, of Chepstow, took delivery of six Gloster-Gardner 6LWs with GRC&W C30R bodies. Numbered 223-228, they were registered in the WO XXXX (Monmouthshire) series. It is said that the unusual seven-bay bodies were not the most robust products and, in 1938, at least 223 was re-bodied by Duple as C32F as can be seen in the photo below.
They were withdrawn between 1948 and 1951. Another user was Neath & Cardiff Luxury Coaches, who took two in 1934, one of which was fitted with a replacement second-hand body in 1946. Both were withdrawn in 1953.

Red & White - Gloster-Gardner - WO 7518
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

The range of chassis numbers between these two vehicles was 563, but such is the arcane nature of chassis numbering, that I remain unconvinced that that was the number of chassis built. The production period was between 1932 and 1934, after which the company was busy with rail orders and this remained the only bus chassis the company ever built, although they built a complete trolleybus in 1933. Interestingly, Gloucester Corporation did not support their local bus maker, although their Vulcan Duchesses and Thornycroft BC’s did carry GRC&W bodies.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron


08/04/13 – 09:28

What a very fine and purposeful looking vehicle! The radiator was particularly impressive and seemed to anticipate Leyland’s later style. It certainly compared very well with the SOS offerings of 1932!

Chris Barker


09/04/13 – 06:43

Chris B puts it perfectly! I imagine the gearbox was David Brown and the axles Kirkstall. Are technical details recorded anywhere? However troublesome the original bodies were, the Duple replacements were nothing like as good-looking–at least to judge by the lower picture–with that awkwardly-handled break in waistline and hackneyed swoop.
Seeing "20 mpg" I assumed the Gardner was a 5LW, but on reading more carefully I was amazed to see such economy from a 6LW. How sad that the project was so short-lived and that there are no survivors. The nearest parallel I suppose is the Irish GNR-Gardner, of which I believe five survive.
Thanks, Chris H, for a very inspiring posting.

Ian Thompson


09/04/13 – 13:50

I’m glad I’m not the only one whose first impression of this vehicle was that it was a Leyland radiator! I’m inclined to agree with Ian that the Duple body doesn’t look quite right. The post war ones – as seen elsewhere on these pages – is clearly a "tidied up" version.

Pete Davies


10/04/13 – 06:38

A couple of further thoughts on this, I think I’m right in saying that the Gardner 5LW and 6LW engines were first trialled in 1931 so in these vehicles must have been some of the very first production examples of the famous Gardner LW range.
Secondly, I’m particularly impressed by the style of the front wings. They give an astonishingly modern look to a 1932 vehicle and again they anticipated post war practice by a good fifteen years!

Chris Barker


10/04/13 – 17:19

I, too, admire the very advanced concept and styling of these Gloster Gardner vehicles. I have come across some references to these machines elsewhere in the past, but very little detail about the specification seems to be available. It does show that the Gardner LW oil engine, introduced in 1931, had established its credentials very quickly indeed. Ian is probably correct in his ideas of the proprietary components employed. Back in 1932, five speed transmissions were not that common – as far as I know, only Albion, Bristol and Dennis were offering these in the early 1930s, though I fully expect to be corrected by a better informed OBP stalwart. 20 mpg does strike me as being a bit optimistic for an overall performance figure, though I have no doubt that this was achievable on a long, steady journey.(Aldershot and District could almost get 16 mpg out of a 6LW Loline III on long runs.) The entire vehicle certainly exudes confidence and competence in ample measure, and the fact that they all had lives of around sixteen to nineteen years shows that such qualities were borne out in practice. It is strange that some of the other mainstream manufacturers did not learn from these remarkable vehicles. Several of the contemporary offerings were decidedly archaic by comparison.

Roger Cox


10/04/13 – 17:20

They are certainly original vehicles ahead of their time in may respects. I agree it is sad that the effort resulted in so few vehicles, none of which survived.
Can anyone shed light on who Marston Coaches were and when WO 7518 was finally put to rest?
I am intrigued enough with these coaches to go down to the local county archives to see if any newspaper items or GRC&W records survive, to get more information. I’ll keep you posted.

Chris Hebbron


28/10/15 – 07:17

The Gloster had a two pronged purpose, firstly Red & White group was private at the time and wanted to take over the City of Gloucester Tramways and replace with buses, eventually this operator fell to Bristol Omnibus port of the Tilling Group, R&W hoped that the Glos connection and a promise of orders would assist the cause.
The second reason was that R&W bought Albions and very good they were but as a very cost aware operator they wanted to switch to diesel engines and Gardners at that and Albion who were working on their own units were reluctant to house the Gardner, with the advent of the Gloster all that changed and Albion quickly came to heel and fitted various LW units for this good customer.
Then 1934 happened and for the first and only time R&W went into a loss and that clearly caused a great deal of activity. The R&W Glosters had been sent to Liverpool where they worked on the McShayne service to London and I think this was given up, Black and White at Cheltenham was set up as a consortium, own services consolidated into the grouping and other changes made all of which brought the company into the black.
In so far as I am aware there were 11 GG chassis, 7 to Red and White, 2 to Neath and Cardiff and 1 for Richmond of Neath all part of Red and White, possibly one not bodied and a Trolleybus using Compton equipment which went to Southend Corporation.
Shame it was a great product with tremendous possibilities but one assumes quite expensive at the time.

Christopher


30/10/15 – 06:23

Thx, Christopher, for the additional background information surrounding these interesting and unique vehicles.
As for the sole Gloster trolleybus, it became 122 in Southend Corporation’s fleet, with a long life, for a unique vehicle, 1934 to 1950. Here are a couple of views:
http://www.cooperline.com/gs_bus_details.asp?id=132
http://www.sct61.org.uk/ss122b

Chris Hebbron


10/02/16 – 07:05

WO 7597

The other Red & White Gloster-Gardner that was rebodied was WO 7597 Fleet No.226, later S833. Here is a photo of the rebodied vehicle. Can anyone identify the body or when the rebodying took place. Neither appear to have been recorded. (Photo from Thomas Knowles Collection attached with his permission)

Richard Smith


11/02/16 – 06:21

I would feel pretty confident in saying that was an ex-North Western body and would not be the only one Red and White had. 671 (EU 8526) was a Griffin PS1 (originally 104) which carried such a body until a Duple coach body was later fitted. I also have a photograph showing another similar body (only) carrying the fleet number 310.

David Beilby


11/02/16 – 16:37

David, I have EU 8526 (and 3 other Griffin PS1s) having been built with a Leyland B35R body. It was later fitted with a second hand Duple coach body from a withdrawn vehicle. I have a D S Giles offside view of it with original Leyland body which does not look like the body above. However I do have Red & White 310 as a 1936 Albion fitted in 1953 with a 1930s ECW B35R body from a North Western vehicle. Can you post your photo of 310 please.

Richard Smith


 

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Red & White – Guy Arab III – HWO 342 – L1749

Red & White – Guy Arab III – HWO 342 - L1749  Photograph by A Charles

Red & White Services 
1949
Guy Arab III
Duple L27/26RD

Sometime ago a comment was sent in by David Wilder for the Eastern Scottish AEC Regent posting regarding Red & White having had very pleasing Duple body Guy Arab IIIs. Above is a great shot contributed by Andrew Charles who took this shot in 2005 of a very well preserved Red & White Arab III lowbridge Duple. Andrew also forwarded the following copy to go with the shot:
“This shot was taken in the grounds of what was then Stroud College during the running day organised by the Stroud RE Group. This site is now under houses but the event goes from strength to strength at the site of the new college. The significance of the bus being at Stroud was of course that in pre Bristol Omnibus days Stroud was a Red & White outpost, we tend to think of them as a Welsh / Forest of Dean operator but they did once go further afield.”
The Red & White Guy is not quite as elaborately decorated as the Eastern Scottish Regent as it only has the one decoration band above the lower saloon windows although there as been a United Services posting with decoration above and below the lower saloon windows. I suppose the purchaser had the choice of where and if it was decorated, I have included below the two shots mentioned the Eastern Scottish on the Left and the United Services on the right

Click on shot to go to Posting Click on shot to go to Posting
                                                         Photograph by P Haywood

This posting is of course open to comments and any other shots of decorative Duple double deckers.

Main photograph & part copy contributed by Andrew Charles


Another Red & White subsidiary, Cheltenham & District, took delivery of five virtually identical vehicles to the above in 1950/51, running them until 1966. There was discussion with the Eastern Scottish Regent as to whether there were only lowbridge versions of this handsome bodywork, The book ‘Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980’ shows them to be H31/26R, and from a close look at the photos, I believe that they were highbridge examples. They, too, had the thick aluminium strip, although they did not have a safety bar across the front upstairs windows inside. Fleet numbers were 74-78 (JDG786-790).

Chris Hebbron


15/03/11 – 06:24

Of course, Red & White also supplied some new Duple-bodied Guy Arab Mk111’s to its subsidiary fleets, including 4 to Venture of Basingstoke (HOT 391-4) with highbridge bodies and 2 lowbirdge examples to Newbury & District Motor Services (FMO 515/6), along with a highbridge example (FMO 517). The latter was originally intended for Venture, and after a short time the Basingstoke examples were transferred to the N&D fleet in the interests of standardisation. All then remained in service at Newbury until withdrawal in 1968. You can read the full story in my new book The Newbury & District Motor Services Story.

Paul Lacey


15/05/11 – 17:59

One day I was driving towards Bolton through the Lancashire town of Leigh. I am sure I saw a Guy Arab in Red and White very faded colours parked in a mill. I assume it had been or was being used as a staff bus for the mill workers. This must have been around the mid 1980’s. Has anyone any information on the fate of the vehicle.

R D Hughes


29/08/11 – 08:07

These where ordered by Red & White; but arrived shortly after a depot swop with Bristol Omnibus; Stroud and Cheltenham went to B.O.C. while R & W had services in the Forest of Dean/Wye Valley/Hereford from B.O.C. They had high bodies no rear doors, and spent most of their days on the St. Marks routes, in Cheltenham. Lovely buses even to the end of their days, The Red & White ones were low bodies with doors and ran in the Forest/Monmouth area. The sad point being Cheltenham District did not fit in with B.O.C. as well as it did with Red & White. Red & White retained its Coach operation, at Montpellier Spa Depot, for a number of years, before basing its Cheltenham Coaches at the Black & White Coach Station for a number of years, until the birth of National Express.

Mike 9


 

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Old Bus Photos from Saturday 25th April 2009 to Friday 22nd September 2017