Old Bus Photos

Ideal Service – Leyland Tiger – DJ 6058

Ideal Service - Leyland Tiger -_DJ 6058
Picture R F Mack

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons)
1934
Leyland Tiger TS6C
Roe B36R (1949)

Parked in Beastfair Pontefract awaiting for the return journey to Barnsley is DJ 6058 which was a Leyland TS6C new to St Helens corporation in 1934 with an English Electric B32F body. Acquired by R. Taylor and Son Cudworth who ran the Ideal Service with H. Wray of Hoyle Mill Barnsley. Re-bodied in 1949 with a Roe body, the entrance was changed to the rear and four extra seat were added making it a B36R.
When Taylors sold out to Yorkshire Traction, Wray’s continued to run the service until they too sold to Yorkshire Traction. Stagecoach ran the service Barnsley to Pontefract via Upton until the 29th January 2017 and they have terminated the service at Brierley. The service from Hemsworth to Pontefract via Upton in now run by M Travel with a vastly reduced service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brian Lunn


17/02/17 – 06:48

To see what it looked like originally, there’s an official picture of a sister vehicle when new at: http://davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/

David Beilby


17/02/17 – 08:54

Thanks for the picture David, it is interesting to see the difference. I don’t remember it any different to the Roe body, so it may have been re-bodied soon after Taylor’s bought it.

Brian Lunn


17/02/17 – 08:55

David – thanks for the link to the official photo of the St Helens version of this TS6c. However, what amazes me is the sign in the back window stating "Dick Kerr Coachwork". I realise they had an historic link with English Electric but I don’t think I’ve ever known of, or seen, reference to a Dick Kerr bus body before.

Paul Haywood


17/02/17 – 14:40

Yes, Paul, an interesting observation. I knew of the ‘Dick Kerr’ connection to trams, and the English Electric connection to both buses and trams, but it appears (if we believe Wikipedia) that the DK operation was a member of the EE group, and that the name is not a variation of Richard Kerr, but a combination of Mr Dick and Mr Kerr, so "Dick, Kerr".

Pete Davies


17/02/17 – 14:41

By the time of this picture DJ 6058 seems to have lost its torque converter, as there is no long tank visible on the front bulkhead. I guess the conversion to normal gearbox would have been made at the same time as the rebodying.

Ian Thompson


17/02/17 – 14:42

According to the Peter Gould fleet list, this vehicle (and one other of its type) were rebodied while with St Helens, and lasted until 1954 with that fleet.

David Call


 

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Ideal Service – Leyland Royal Tiger – HAV 384

Ideal Service - Leyland Royal Tiger - HAV 384
Copyright R F Mack

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son)
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
Leyland B44F

The attached Photograph dating back to the 1950 show HAV 384 in Barnsley Bus station preparing to depart for Pontefract on the Ideal service route run jointly with H Wray & Son. This vehicle was new to Simpsons of Rosehearty before being acquired by Taylors. The driver is Dennis Taylor, his older brother Len also drove. This was in fact one of the buses used on my school run on a morning and tea time to the High School and Kings School in Pontefract. This involved 5 buses on the morning and afternoon run. The morning being the worst as I lived in a village which was the last port of call into Pontefract and 1 of the 5 was the service bus you would put your hand out and eventually one would stop. Although the service ran in all weathers its time keeping was not what you would call excellent. It left the top of my village at 10 to the hour and arrived any time between 20 to and 10 past. You could always guarantee a place on the last bus from Pontefract on a Saturday night. They never left any one, a 35 seater was stopped by the police one night and 72 occupants alighted!!!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brian Lunn


06/08/15 – 05:50

Mention of packed last buses brings to mind the apocryphal story of the last Pennine bus from Skipton which had a passenger sat alongside the engine on the near side mudguard!

Chris Hough


06/08/15 – 05:52

How very interesting! Thank you for posting this. It raises a little query which, perhaps, ought to be in the "Q&A" section.
I have a bought slide of JWF 885, an Albion CX13, which was listed in my source’s catalogue as belonging to Ideal, Wray & Son, of Harrogate. We’re not talking of the same firm here, I suppose. Are we?

Pete Davies


06/08/15 – 07:54

Pete the Wrays of Harrogate I think were based at Starbeck, they were mainly a coach operation if I remember right. They sold out to Eddie Brown. H. Wray of the Ideal service were based in Lord Street Hoyle Mill Barnsley, where I think it was the 4pm out of Barnsley used to stop to fill up complete with passengers before continuing on its route.

Brian Lunn


06/08/15 – 11:22

Thank you, Brian. I thought my assorted sources might be wrong – again.

Pete Davies


06/08/15 – 11:22

JWF 885 belonged to France (Ideal Motor Services), Market Weighton, East Yorkshire.

David Hick


06/08/15 – 11:23

JWF 885 was new to Baldry of Sancton in 7/51 it passed to France’s Motors T/A Ideal of Market Weighton in 1/54, both in the East Riding of Yorkshire.
JWF was a Albion FT39N with Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body!!
Ideal is still operating today, but is now part of York Pullman, but is kept as a separate business still in its original green livery

Mike Davies


06/08/15 – 11:24

I’m a little puzzled here: I thought that Leyland gave up building single deck bodies, in favour of just double deck ones, as a peacetime decision, at least until it had to with the Leyland National/Lynx. Am I wrong, or was this a one-off demonstrator?

Chris Hebbron


06/08/15 – 15:40

Hi CH
There are 5 pictures of post war Leyland bodied SDs on SCT ’61 photo index Body Builder-Leyland picture number 249 onwards plus more further down.

John Lomas


07/08/15 – 07:17

I read an item on Simpsons and they received three of these Tigers HAV384/5/6 There is a photo on flicker of HAV386 I also understand that the 3 were mentioned in the Leyland Bus book, however I am unable to check this as I am in the process of sorting my book storage and I can not put my had on the book in question.

Brian Lunn


07/08/15 – 07:17

Interesting to read Mike Davies’ comment about JWF 885 having a Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body. The PSV Circle records it as Barnaby but I have a recollection of visiting France at Market Weighton some 40 years ago and seeing it with a Scottish Aviation body sticker. For all that time I’ve thought I must have been mistaken but here is some other evidence that points that way.
Answers on a postcard.

John Carr


07/08/15 – 07:18

Brian, it was W. Pyne & Sons who were based in Starbeck (on Camwal Road) and their white and purple coaches were a familiar sight around the area for many years. Wray’s operated from their garage at Dacre Banks, which is between Harrogate and Pateley Bridge. Their coaches usually had ‘Wray’s of Summerbridge" on the rear however – Summerbridge being a larger village, literally just over the River Nidd from Dacre Banks. (Presumably Wray’s felt people would know where Summerbridge was, but might not with Dacre Banks!). Wray’s livery was mid-grey, greeny-grey and red, and the firm’s coaches could often be seen in the summer months with windscreen stickers proclaiming "On Hire To West Yorkshire". Indeed, some of their distinctive coaches could be often be seen parked on the forecourt of WY’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate. At one time Wray’s fleet included a Yeates-bodied AEC Reliance and Yeates-bodied Bedford SB, whose flamboyant styling provided an interesting contrast as they rubbed shoulders with the classic lines of WY’s ECW-bodied LS, MW and RE coaches.

Brendan Smith


07/08/15 – 07:19

There is more info for W Pyne & Son Starbeck at this link

Peter


07/08/15 – 09:21

Thanks Brendan for the correction, I remember now. I should have twigged as I travelled past their garage at Dacre Banks often. I do remember seeing the "On hire to West Yorkshire" as you say in the busy period.

Brian Lunn


07/08/15 – 17:07

Chris, your comments re Leyland single deck bodies prompted me to plough through my old issues of Classic Bus as something rang a bell (issue 5, June-July 1993). You are right that Leyland did focus on only double deck bodies immediately post war, due to the huge demand for them at the time. This lead to the successful Farington body in 1950 which was built until 1954. The single deck bodies came about following the integral Olympic project in 1949, in conjunction with MCW. After that they produced two standardised single deck bodies for the Royal Tiger, the familiar all metal, centre entrance coach body from 1950, and the rather angular bus version from 1951. Nothing followed for the Tiger Cub so, as you have stated, next in line was the National, nearly two decades later.

Mike Morton


08/08/15 – 09:24

The photo of HAV 384 could only have been taken in the mid-1960s, since Simpsons themselves were running it well into the decade.
There were only two vehicles in the batch, HAV 384 and HAV 385 – the latter operated for Garner, Bridge of Weir after service with Simpsons.
‘HAV 386’ was an invention of the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Group, the vehicle which has appeared in photographs showing that registration was really ERN 709, originally Ribble 386, later with UTA/Ulsterbus.
Talking of Wrays of Dacre Banks, didn’t they too finish up somewhere in the Knaresborough area? Whether or not it was Starbeck I don’t know, I don’t know the area all that well.

David Call


08/08/15 – 10:18

JWF 885

Well, this does get confusing. I’m glad I asked. I’m attaching a view of my bought slide, which doesn’t look to have a very green livery to me, unless it’s a combination of scanning a bought slide which may or may not have rendered the original properly, and my less than pristine eyesight. As noted in my original comment, it was listed as a CX13.
Chris, Leyland built large numbers of bodies in both bus and coach form on the Royal Tiger, many of them for Ribble. They finally gave up body building in about 1953. My understanding has always been that they were too busy on chassis to afford to have anyone on building bodies. Look under Pennine in the operators section in the column on the left of the page for a view of the demonstrator Royal Tiger coach. I believe Baxters of Airdrie had a former demonstrator in bus form.

Pete Davies


08/08/15 – 15:32

Pete, I think the Baxter’s vehicle you have in mind would be NTJ 985, but it wasn’t an ex-demonstrator, it had been new to Corless of Charnock Richard. After the takeover of Baxter’s by Eastern Scottish it ran in the latter’s livery for a while. http://www.sct61.org.uk/xb107

David Call


09/08/15 – 06:40

Thank you, David. Now, any other words of advice from anyone about JWF?

Pete Davies


09/08/15 – 09:57

Thanks, Mike M & Pete D for reminding me of Leyland’s coach version of the Royal Tigers’ body, which I DO recall now, working for Southdown. I never remember seeing the bus version, perhaps because they tended to be and stay ‘oop North’!

Chris Hebbron


10/08/15 – 05:43

There’s a photo of JWF at https://www.flickr.com/photos/ which says it’s an FT39N with Scottish Aviation 31-seat body. In view of the size I would definitely rule out CX13, and although I have never before seen a Scottish Aviation body with a curved window line (the windows don’t look very happy, so perhaps it’s the only one they built!), the trimmings do look exactly like theirs.

Peter Williamson


10/08/15 – 11:23

Thank you, Peter W!

Pete Davies


18/08/15 – 05:40

The two buses HAV 384 and 385 left the Simpson fleet in March 1961 and October 1960.
HAV 384 going directly to Taylor of Cudworth part of the Ideal consortium. They sold the vehicle to Mellers of Goxhill in October 1967. It operated for them until October 1968.
HAV 385 went directly to Garner of Bridge of Weir in October 1960 and then to Tiger Coaches of Salsburgh in March 1967.
From my own notes and checked with the PSV Circle publication SAD1, pre war operators in Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire.

Stephen Bloomfield


18/08/15 – 10:36

It seems I was a few years out in my estimation of when Simpson’s disposed of HAV384 – anyway, at least it wasn’t in the 1950s.
Does anyone know why Simpson’s sold HAV 384/5 at such an early age? A year or two later they were buying secondhand Royal Tigers of similar vintage. http://public.fotki.com/boballoa/1/

David Call


 

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Ideal Service – Graham-Dodge – WU 2725

Ideal Service - Graham-Dodge - WU 2725

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son)
1925 
Graham-Dodge
Reynolds B20F

This is the oldest vehicle to date to appear on the Old Bus Photos website and what a shot it is, it was contributed by Robert Gomersall who is the great grandson of R Taylor who was the original proprietor of Ideal Service. They had three other Graham-Dodge vehicles in their fleet all delivered between 1925 and 1927, one other 20 seater and two 14 seaters. The two 14 seaters did not stay long both being sold on by 1929 this particular bus was sold to Oscroft of Goldthorpe in July 1933 and the other 20 seater was scrapped in 1935. The body was built by Reynolds of Barnsley of whom I know very little, any information would be gratefully received.
Below just for reference are enlargements of the front and side destination boards.

front boardside boardIn 1920, Dodge Brothers emerged as a leading builder of light trucks. Dodge Brothers cars ranked second place in American sales in 1920. Then both brothers died and the company started to stagnate. To help, Dodge entered into an agreement, whereby they marketed trucks built by Graham Brothers of Evansville, Indiana through their dealerships. [The three Graham brothers would later produce Graham-Paige and Graham Automobiles].
The Graham brothers, Joseph, Robert, and Ray, had began building trucks immediately after World War I, teaming up with Dodge Brothers in 1921 after the deaths of John and Horace Dodge in 1920. The Graham truck became the Dodge truck.
In the end, having fallen to fifth place in sales, Dodge fell to Chrysler in 1925. However, these trucks continued to be marketed until 1929. Stratford Blue appear to have taken delivery of a couple in 1930 with unknown B14 bus bodies.
My thanks to Neville Mercer and Chris Hebbron for the Ideal Service fleet history and the Dodge-Graham history.

Photograph contributed by Robert Gomersall


It never ceases to amaze me of the variety of chassis and body builders around at that time. Chassis makers imported their products from all over Europe. They would never all have made it, but the 1929 ‘Crash’ prematurely finished a lot of them off. I’d say that Gilford (with their unique Gruss front suspension and own Wycombe bodies) was, perhaps, the most popular of these outsiders, specialising more with coaches rather than buses. They managed to get through the recession, but the big boys dominated the market by then and there were fewer independents, so, despite their making a very good and reliable product, they went into liquidation end-1936.

Chris Hebbron


Funny you should mention Gilford. A great "might have been" manufacturer. By all accounts a superb product hit both by the crash and by that old devil – consolidation.
There were faithful customers who were taken over by other firms – or even groups – and were not Gilford customers. Overnight a customer base would disappear. [This happened a lot with post deregulation grouping and regrouping.] Unfortunately, it happened too often with Gilford who were also very much in to advanced experimental models which cost a lot too develop and cost too much for conservative operators to buy.
Satisfied customers included Bristol Greyhound, Black and White and Yelloway.

David Oldfield


08/09/14 – 18:00

Reynolds Bros. was for many years the main Ford agent for Barnsley. They also built the "Dearne" range of municipal vehicles based on Ford chassis in the early 1930’s. Their garage and showroom was on Peel Street, and the bodyshop and works was on Fitzwilliam Street. The firm later became Service Garage (Barnsley) Ltd., and later still Polar Ford. The Peel Street premises were demolished in the late 1960’s after a move to a new, larger site on Dodworth Road, and the Fitzwilliam Street site had several other later users including Jaguar restoration specialists 3.4 limited. The site has been cleared recently to make way for the Gateway Plaza development. Polar Ford moved from Dodworth Road to Wakefield Road to make way for new housing, and Polar have very recently become Trust Ford. (September 2014)

Kevin Green


 

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