Old Bus Photos

East Midland – Leyland Tiger Cub – XRR 540 – R40

East Midland Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

East Midland Motor Services 
1958
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2
Willowbrook DP41F

Not an operator I know very much about but on researching this particular vehicle it would appear that it started its life with a fleet number of C40. I have come across a photo of XRR 535 C35 which was in a livery of all Cream with a single coloured band below the window did this vehicle start life as cream coach? I am not sure what their prefix fleet letters stood for ‘C’ For coach ‘D’ for double decker I can guess at but ‘R’ ‘O’ ‘L’ which were for single deckers do not mean much to me. If you know please leave a comment. It would appear that East Midland at one time had a livery of Chrome Yellow for the body, Cream for the lower saloon windows and Chocolate for the upper saloon windows and roof I bet that looked good, has anyone seen a colour shot. The livery at the time that the shot above was taken was Dark Red and Cream but that changed to Dark Green in the early seventies.

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I recall the original livery which was very distinctive! It was almost art deco- very thirties- and then went into a sort of drab utility maroon. The green was presumably NBC….?

Joe

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I vaguely remember these vehicles from my Sheffield childhood (on the Derbyshire border, towards Chesterfield).
I quite liked the maroon and cream – because I was not then aware of the original livery, which had disappeared by the time I was old enough to be aware of these things. It is possible that this livery was derived from that of Underwoods – the firm which became East Midland under BET control. The original livery adorned a RM in the short time that they plied the roads of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire.
Over a period of time – in BET times – East Midland became joint owner, along with Yorkshire Traction and North Western, of one of the greatest coach tour operators – nearby Sheffield United Tours.
East Midland became one of my favourite operators – which I used regularly – and I was sad when NBC leaf green replaced the drab maroon. This was especially so when my favourite (J – M) registered RE coaches lost their cream and maroon for NBC corporate livery.

David Oldfield

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In 1977, long before the RM already mentioned, East Midland repainted an Alexander bodied Fleetline in the old brown/cream/yellow livery to commemorate their 50th anniversary. One of the 1965 batch, but can’t recall which one. It should also be mentioned that the famous bus photographer Roy Marshall (who once worked in Nottingham and was thus familiar with EMMS’s original livery) later became the General Manager of Burnley & Pendle and adopted the same colour scheme for several of that Lancashire undertaking’s vehicles including some Y-type bodied Leopards and at least one VRT3/ECW double-decker.
Going off at a slight tangent, Roy Marshall also did a stint as the boss of Gelligaer UDC’s fleet and when he moved to East Staffordshire (Burton-on-Trent Corporation as it used to be) he repainted this Midland fleet in Gelligaer’s old livery of green, red, and white – a vast improvement over the gloomy maroon and cream previously used by Burton.
Does anybody know of any further examples where migrating General Managers have ‘taken the livery with them’?

Neville Mercer

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Can’t remember which way round it was but Halifax and Glasgow shared a livery due to a demonstrator in one fleet being borrowed by the operator who liked the livery and adopted it themselves.
There is also the apocryphal story of legal action when someone saw the old Bostock’s livery, liked it, adopted it and upset Bostock’s.

I also vaguely remember the Fleetline, now that Neville mentions it.

Trivia: Can anyone explain why, with a head office in Chesterfield, all East Midland buses had Nottinghamshire registrations?

David Oldfield

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The 1965 edition of BBF5 says that the R prefix was for 30-foot long dual purpose vehicles, but that can’t be right because it shows all the bus-seated 30-footers with R prefixes as well. L meant long – i.e. 36 feet.
Joining Neville on his tangent for a moment, did Geoffrey Hilditch once set up a coach fleet at Aberdare using Halifax livery? Or did I dream that? The memory does feel very much like a dream . . .

Peter Williamson

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According to the Prestige Series book on East Midland (excellent B&W photographs by G H F Atkins; text by John Banks) the old livery was derived from United, who abandoned it in 1930 in favour of red and cream. The company was originally W T Underwood of Clowne, but with strong backing from United (virtually a subsidiary).

As for the alpha-numeric number series, the type-series letter seems to have been allocated in a rather haphazard fashion. Note that only the single-deckers were distinguished in this way. All of the double-deckers were just series D, irrespective of chassis or body manufacturer.

However, unravelling the tangle it seems this is how it went for the single deckers (Are you sitting comfortably? Then I shall begin…) :

G – 50 x ADC 416A (Short Bros.) 1927 – series allocated to EM by United
M – 10 x AEC Reliance (Lowestoft – later ECW) 1929 – series allocated to EM by United
N – 10 x AEC Regal (Short Bros) 1930 (some rebodied 1939 with Leyland bodies taken from 1935 TS7s, i.e. type B)
L – 20 x AEC Regal (Brush) 1931 (of which 3 were coaches, designated LC)
L – ? x AEC Regal 4 (Brush) 1933-34
C – 5 x Leyland KP2 Cub 1934
B – 20 x Leyland TS7 (10 Brush; 10 Leyland) 1935 (4 Brush rebodied 1949 by Willowbrook re-designated type N)
B – 14 x Leyland TS7 (5 Brush; 1 Burlingham coach; 8 Leyland) 1936
E – 30 x Leyland TS7 (ECW dual purpose) 1937 (6 rebodied 1948 by Willowbrook re-designated type N)
F – 11 x Leyland TS7 (ECW bus) 1938
A – 10 x AEC Regal (Weymann) 1946
A – 14 x AEC Regal III (Third-hand ! Leyland bodies)  1947-48 (rebodied 1952 by Willowbrook and re-designated type K)
AC – 2 x AEC Regal III (Windover coach) 1948
H – ? x AEC Regal III (Weymann) 1949
J – ? x AEC Regal III (Willowbrook) 1950
R – All underfloor engine buses from 1952-62 (all Leyland chassis)
C (Second time round) – All underfloor engine coaches and dual-purpose from 1954 onwards.
L – ? x Leyland Leopard buses from 1963 (Willowbrook)
O – ? x Bristol buses from 1969 (ECW)

N (Second time round!) – various re-bodies (see above) also 10 second hand Leyland TS7s purchased from YWD 1949 and subsequently re-bodied by Willowbrook.

Please note that this is not comprehensive, and takes no account of vehicles absorbed through takeover. There were certainly 5 x Bristol L5G (ECW) in 1938 and 2 x Bedford WTB (Duple) in 1939, for which no type letter is quoted.

Stephen Ford

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Someone mentioned East Midland having a Fleetline in the old brown livery. This was in fact an Atlantean PD1/2 fleet no D177 registration BNN 177C.
Chesterfield corporation also had Nottingham registrations as well.

Alan Ridge

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Chesterfield Corporation had NU and RA registrations – Derbyshire CC.

David Oldfield

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R – All underfloor engine buses from 1952-62 (all Leyland chassis)
Some of these were in fact AEC chassis and the last 3 R496 R497 & R498 were AEC chassis and the same bodies as the L400 (400 RRR) series Leylands.
The O series were one batch of AEC Swifts O501 to O510. (NAL 501F to 505F then OAL 506F to 510F) Marshall Bodies,
Bristol RE’s with single doors. O511 to O522. ECW.
Bristol RE’s with single doors. O523 to O532. I think these had Marshall Bodies, I know that they had a strange 3 X 2 arrangement for the rear two rows of seats.
Bristol RE’s with single doors. O533 to O541. Leyland engines and Marshall bodies. I have not heard any news of it, but CRR 537J O537 was preserved, somewhere around Derby.
Bristol RE’s with Dual doors. O542 to O556. ECW bodies. I think O545 was the last red and cream East Midland bus, around 1975/6

Ian Couzens

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10/07/12 – 06:44

The question raised about registration numbers being issued in Nottinghamshire. It was from the days of the head office being in Worksop. Why on moving to Chesterfield it was not changed I don’t know. Hope this helps/ Don’t forget Clowne was also head office prior to Worksop.

Ian Bennett

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10/07/12 – 09:17

In response to Nevilles question above re migrating General Managers. When Vane-Morland moved from Walsall to Leeds he brought their blue livery with him prior to this the trams and buses were yellow and white or a deep Prusian blue rather than the flatter slate blue that became standard in the thirties.

Chris Hough

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26/07/12 – 07:44

The vehicle in the above photograph was taken over the pit at Worksop bus garage on Allen Street Worksop.

Mr Anon

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XRR 540_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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26/10/12 – 07:06

For those youngsters, who were deprived of the EMMS chocolate etc livery, I have appended some links to modern day efforts to replicate the livery.
www.flickr.com/photos/manofyorkshire/
www.flickr.com/photos/
www.flickr.com/photos/guy_arab_uf/
www.flickr.com/photos/deltrems/

John Darwent


 

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PMT – AEC Regent III – REH 524 – H524

PMT - AEC Regent III - REH 524 - H524
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Potteries Motor Traction
1952
AEC Regent III 9613A 
Northern Counties H32/26R

This is a rather nice looking Northern Counties bodied Regent III the front of the upper deck looks a bit Massey’ish but the flared skirt just adds that little extra touch. PMT had a very varied fleet one reason for this was that when they took over a rival operator they absorbed their vehicles into their own fleet. In 1951 PMT took over five companies and 150 vehicles I do not think that REH 500 fleet number H500 was one of them. REH 500 was a Daimler CLG5 I have not come across many of those in my researching, mind you, they only had the one, the L by the way stood for lightweight. With regards Daimler and PMT they were the largest operator of the Roadliner having almost seventy of them, but that is another sad story which should really be told with a photo of a PMT Roadliner above it, unfortunately I do not have one.

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here and there is also a list of Daimler codes here.

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For Daimler CLG5 see my comment under the heading of Manchester Daimler NNB 231. PMT’s REH 500 was one of the two prototypes. It also carried the prototype MCW Orion body and appeared at the 1952 Commercial Motor Show.

Peter Williamson

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I also seem to recollect that PMT had the first 30′ Orion on a PD3 – which was unique in having six short bays (of same size as on 27′ models) rather than the standard five longer bays.

David Oldfield

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These were a splendid vehicle they gave a nice comfortable ride and were quite quick I have driven this vehicle and also been a conductor on this vehicle.

Michael Crofts

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This vehicle was one of a batch of twelve, ordered in 1951 jointly by two independents, Stoke Motors and Thomas Tilstone with a view to a merger of the two businesses. It is written that this prospect alarmed PMT so much that they made a more than generous offer to the proprietors, hence a batch of Regents delivered to a fleet not known hitherto for AEC purchases, although they became common later with Reliances.

Chris Barker

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Also worthy of note the AEC Regents above had the air cleaner from the engine attached by pipe work to the upper saloon which is why the front window pillar is so thick and this kept the air in the saloon clear of cigarette smoke, the ceiling looked like a crib board.

Michael Crofts


 

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J W Fieldsend Ltd – Ford Thames Trader – TRJ 731

J W Fieldsend Ltd - Ford Thames Trader - TRJ 731  
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

J W Fieldsend Ltd (Salford)
1961
Ford Thames Trader 570E 
Plaxton C41F

I feel fairly sure that the above shot was taken at the 5th National Coach Rally which started in Wigan and finished in Blackpool where this shot was taken. According to a Buses Illustrated report on the event it was a very foggy morning so much so that only 20 of the 47 entrants had arrived at the starting point in time, but due to the bad weather conditions the penalties made to late arrivals were discarded for this particular rally. The Fieldsend coach above was driven by J T Wareham and came second in the 30ft and under class mind you I found out that the year before Mr Wareham won National Driver of the Year award in the same coach. It is also interesting to note that TRJ 731 was one of only seven built prior to 1965 at the rally that year.


Is this a typo or simply bad info? The Plaxton Embassy IV body was only produced for one season – 1964, not 1961.

David Oldfield


The info for the Ford was
TRJ was from March 1961 and URJ was from July 1961
and this info from Bus Lists Plaxton page 
602353  TRJ 731 Fd 570E 510E53471 C41F 5/1961 Fieldsend, Salford

Peter


Thanks for that. I have to say, then, that either Bus Lists is wrong – which according to registration chronology looks unlikely – or it needs further investigation. I can say with absolute certainty that that is a 1964 body; the design was only produced in that year. Was it new in 1961, stored and not bodied until 1964? Was it involved in an accident and rebodied? Did Fieldsend’s do what Manchester Corporation did – have a block of registrations which covered about five years? (Highly unlikely). 
More questions than answers. [For what it’s worth, according to Bus Lists, all the "surrounding" Ford/Embassys were of the Embassy I type, only just introduced in 1961.

David Oldfield


Intrigued by your shot of Thames TRJ 731, not least because it carries a version of the Embassy body produced only in 1964, a fact which is clearly at odds with its registration (and, on checking a chassis listing) its date of manufacture. Presumably the original Plaxton body had been replaced by the one illustrated. Does anybody have details of the accident/fire/etc which made this necessary? Fieldsends’ livery was particularly unimaginative, cream with a black flash. This style of Embassy bodywork looks much better in a ‘proper’ colour scheme!

Neville Mercer


There is obviously something not quite right here does anyone have any clues that may solve this mystery.

Peter


First a minor correction. The body type is Embassy III not IV, but I agree that the model was only produced for the 1964 season (for which many people were very grateful).
I have found another entry in Bus Lists Plaxton lists which may explain it, although if it does then it contains at least one typo. Sticking out like a sore thumb in a block of 1964 Ford 570Es, with registration numbers missing and chassis numbers in the L80 series, is 510E54371, shown as delivered to Victoria, Salford. This is the only entry on the site for that operator, which I’ve never heard of.
So, if one of 53471 and 54371 is a typo, and if Victoria = Fieldsend, then TRJ 731 was rebodied in January 1964 with body number 632926

Peter Williamson


Victoria. This company was a subsidiary of Fieldsends the full title being Victoria Garage (Leigh) Ltd another twist is not Leigh, Lancashire but Leigh on Sea, Essex. BLOTW has a vehicle listed under Hackett Leigh, Hackett being the name of the owners of Fieldsends from when the Fieldsend family sold the business until 1983

Tim Presley


Have to disagree with Tim Presley, this vehicle never operated with Victorias of Leigh-on-Sea who were an entirely different company to Hackett (Victoria Coaches) of Leigh, a subsidiary of Fieldsends after the Hackett family bought out Fieldsends and "reversed" their own company into it. The Leigh-on-Sea company was probably most famous for operating a pair of Bristol SC4LK coaches, later sold to Vagg of Knockin Heath.

Neville Mercer


I owe an apology to Tim Presley for stating that the Hackett family of Fieldsends had no connection with the Leigh-on-Sea company known as Victoria Coaches. Further research shows that the Hacketts purchased three different Southend-area coach companies in 1958 and amalgamated them into Victoria Coaches (Leigh-on-Sea) Ltd, presumably taking the title from that of their company coincidentally based in Leigh, Lancashire. By 1964 the Essex company had been sold to a locally based proprietor, however, so my belief that the Ford had never run for the Leigh-on-Sea company is still correct. Incidentally, while the Fieldsends business and its associates (which also included Cash of Urmston) were owned and run by J. and W. Hackett, a Mr Hubert Hackett of All Saints in Manchester was running a parallel coaching empire in the 1950s including such companies as Timperley Coaches. Was he related to the other two Hacketts?

Neville Mercer


10/05/11 – 07:22

No Hubert Hackett was no relation.
A bit of further information for you Fieldsends, Salford also acquired Wheatleys of Patricroft around the same time as Cash the Southend business was run by Arthur Hackett with Jim Hackett, Stan Hackett running the North West business

Tim Presley


07/07/11 – 06:33

Fortunately the PSVC recently published their information on buses with Salford registrations in their Journal, and this confirms that TRJ 731 was indeed rebodied.
The full known history is –
New 5/61 to J W Fieldsend, Salford; withdrawn 5/63
To Victoria Service Station, Salford, rebodied Plaxton 632936 C41F 1/64; withdrawn 11/69
To E W Kemp, Chillenden 4/70
To T Rowland (Terry’s Coaches), Faversham 12/75
To D C Farmer, Kennington 6/78; sold 3/81

Michael Wadman


17/08/12 – 10:19

So nice to see a photo of TRJ 731 again. J.T.Wareham was my father and I remember the rallies well. Sadly pictures of that time are long lost.
Dad started working with Wheatleys and stayed with the company when Fieldsends took over.

John Wareham



TRJ 731_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

07/09/12 – 07:43

re TRJ 731 it was in a rta in 1962 and rebodied in 1964 it was on the miners run going to Wigan to pickup miners for the new pit Agecroft. Fieldsends had 3 or 4 buses on this run.

Bill


07/09/13 – 08:30

Re age of TRJ’s body.. not sure which year the 5th rally was.. but I do remember the 4th rally when J T Wareham (my father) won the coach driver of the year.. he not only won that, but 9 of the 10 classes that year… the only one he didn’t get was called the Cours d’Elegance I think for the smartest bus.. he said it was maybe due to his bus being older than the others.. if anyone has a link to the Eccles Journal/Manchester Evening News or any other article to this achievement I would be very grateful as a few newspapers carried the story with a pic of Dad and Mr Fieldsend with his trophies..or may have been a Mr Hackett not sure.

Pam Hardy (Wareham)


20/09/13 – 18:10

I think your father would have been photographed with Mr Hackett as my grandfather and founder of Fieldsend’s Coaches died in 1957.
If anyone has any knowledge and/or photographs about my grandfather J.W. Fieldsend I would be obliged and interested.

Jane Hardwick (nee Fieldsend)


 

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Old Bus Photos from Saturday 25th April 2009 to Saturday 19th April 2014