Old Bus Photos

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – KWA 545 – 545

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2 - KWA 545 - 545
Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1947
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

This is an all Leyland (H30/26R) PD2/1 of the first batch of 20 delivered to Sheffield in October 1947. These were withdrawn between 1963 and 1965 but then nine of them were reinstated and lasted until 1966. In May 1966 The Leeds and District Transport News came to Sheffield in Leeds 380, another PD2/1 with an early Farington style Leyland body and the two buses were used on a tour of Sheffield routes. I joined the tour in Sheffield and I still remember how the Sheffield bus left the Leeds vehicle standing on some of the Sheffield hills that were encountered. I always had a soft spot for these reinstated buses and 545 looks a fine sight at nearly 19 years old climbing Greystones Road on the South Western side of the City. In Sheffield in those days 18/19 year old buses were something of a rarity. The bus looks to have been ‘bulled up’ by the Leadmill Road Depot for the occasion but still reflects the high standard maintained by Sheffield City Transport.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

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Yes, Ian, they were long lived – 13 being the average age before withdrawal of STD buses. These were exceptionally long lived – even more so those which had a second life as driver trainers in all over blue. [But do I remember trainers being grey before that?]
I never rode "in service" on these but did the swimming run from Greenhill to Heeley Baths and games run from King Edward’s at Broomhill to either Trap Lane (Bents Green) or Castle Dyke (Ringinglow).

Superb picture by the way.

David Oldfield

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NNW 380 became number 13 in the LCT Driving School, and when I applied for a job as a "direct" driver I took my test in it – at 5.00 pm in the Leeds City Centre rush hour. It behaved like a dream and after a couple of miles, at Tommy Wass in Dewsbury Road, the Senior Instructor said "Yes OK, straight back to Swinegate then." I was enjoying the vehicle very much and said so – Mr. Albert Bradley, a gentleman if ever there was one, said "Oh, OK then – carry on round the Ring Road and through Belle Isle and Hunslet first." It comes as no surprise to me that the Sheffield vehicle did better on the hills. I am not an engineer but it was common knowledge that LCT engines were "cut down" to save fuel. I’m sure this was a much misguided policy, as it undoubtedly resulted in ferocious, wicked and expensive vehicle abuse from a goodly proportion of disinterested drivers who were never brought to book – drivers who would boast of "being a fast man" and "I never come off late" etc etc – a reprehensible attitude, and one which allowed (and still does) operators to impose totally impossible and arguably illegal running times. I mustn’t get carried away with this latter subject because I could write a book with graphic illustrations of the scandal.

Chris Youhill

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Thanks for the comment David.
The only one of the 1947 PD2s that was a driver trainer in mainly blue livery with two cream bands was D2 KWA 552 although it was later repainted in standard cream and blue. (I have photos of it in both schemes). The others were turned out in the standard cream/blue livery from the outset of their spell as trainers The trainers used prior to these were the 1948 Crossley/Northern Coachbuilders deckers which were certainly in mainly blue colours.
I can recall earlier trainers in grey – wonder if this was something to do with the wartime colours? I have a photo of ex 474 HWA 384 which looks to be all over one colour (grey?) and also one of ex 340 EWA 540 which is in a dark colour with cream window surrounds. Other than these I don’t have any evidence of grey liveried trainers. Does this help?

Ian Wild

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Did remember the Crossley/NCBs but also wondered whether the grey had anything to do with using up war-time paint stocks. Thanks Ian.

David Oldfield


 

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H Brown and Sons – Sentinel STC4/40 – GUJ 608 & Sentinel SLC4/35 – HNT 49

H Brown and Sons - Sentinel STC4/40 - GUJ 608 & Sentinel SLC4/35 - HNT 49

H Brown and Sons - Sentinel STC4/40 - GUJ 608 & Sentinel SLC4/35 - HNT 49
Copyright both shots Peter Williamson

H Brown and Sons                                            H Brown and Sons
1950                                                                 1951
Sentinel STC4/40                                             Sentinel SLC4/35
Sentinel B40F                                                   Beadle B??F (ex C35C)

The years leading up to 1950 spawned a revolution in the design of single-deck buses and coaches, in which, in an effort to increase passenger capacity, the engine was removed from its traditional prominent position "between the shafts", turned on its side, and tucked away ignominiously under the floor. Leyland had built a class of buses to this design for London Transport before the war, and BMMO standardised on it from 1946 for their Midland Red fleet.
Coincidentally, when Sentinel started building diesel lorries in 1946, they mounted the engine horizontally under the cab floor, just as they had done with their famous steam waggons. This experience, together with with the fact that the company was by then part of a group which also made panelling for Beadle bus bodies, placed Sentinel in an ideal position to take part in the underfloor-engined bus revolution. In fact Sentinel was the first manufacturer to offer such a bus on the open market, exhibiting two complete vehicles at the 1948 Commercial Motor Show, while Leyland – who were developing the Olympic – could only show a horizontal engine as a taster.
The first models were the STC4, a lightweight integral product with bus bodywork built by Sentinel to Beadle design, and the SLC4, which was supplied as a chassis for outside bodying as bus or coach, although most were bodied by Beadle as coaches. Six-cylinder models STC6 and SLC6 followed after a couple of years, the latter with a wider choice of bodywork. Unfortunately Sentinel’s reputation in the bus world began as non-existent, started to sink because of early problems with engines and engine mountings, and never really recovered. The company gave up building road vehicles in 1956.
With the exception of Ribble, who were involved in the design process and purchased a total of 20 Sentinels, most buyers were small independents, of which Browns of Donnington Wood in Shropshire was one of the best known. The STC4 shown here was new as a Sentinel demonstrator, and the SLC4 had been converted by the operator from a centre-entrance coach to a front-entrance omo bus by the time these photos were taken in 1968. Both vehicles are still in existence.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Peter Williamson

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06/11/11 – 17:14

"Following GUJ 608’s photo from Peter Williamson, in Brown’s colours.

GUJ 608_2_lr

Here’s a photo I took of her yesterday (6th Nov 2011) at the Aston Manor Museum, Birmingham. The museum officially closed on 30th Oct, but they helpfully let me in. I couldn’t discover whose livery it was painted in, but maybe it was the one it wore whilst a demonstrator, bearing in mind it shows Senitinel in the number box.
Its history, prior to Brown’s ownership, was demonstrator, then Maryland Coaches, East London, for four years, then Warners of Tewkesbury, for four years. The future of the museum’s collection is now uncertain, as they must vacate the building by 31st Dec.."

Chris Hebbron

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07/11/11 – 12:08

GUJ 608 is currently in the livery it wore as a Sentinel demonstrator at the beginning of its life, although it is believed that it kept this colour scheme while with Maryland Coaches. Warners repainted it in their two-tone green livery.

Neville Mercer

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08/01/12 – 11:38

I noted with interest the bus painted blue with Dinnington as its destination – Hills of Whiston used to make Sentinel buses and two were supplied to a local company – Wigmore’s that ran between Dinnington and Sheffield – passing
en route Whiston. Could this be one of the two actual buses. They also produced buses for a firm called Camplejohn. Hope this is of some interest !

H Tompkin

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The destination is Donnington, suggesting that it still has a Browns blind.
As far as I can ascertain, the only Sentinel that ran for Wigmores of Dinnington was JWW 316. Apparently a second one (unidentified) was exhibited in Wigmores livery at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show, but was never delivered.

Peter Williamson

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10/01/12 – 12:00

Ah! Dear old Wiggy’s. As a slip of a boy (13 or so) I wrote to Wiggy’s and got a very nice invitation to their Dinnington depot. At the time it was in the West Riding – hence the registrations – but post 1974 became part of Rotherham, South Yorkshire. [South Yorkshire is geographically correct - if not historically - and better than Humberside. What was wrong with the Ridings anyway? Did the London centric Civil Servants not understand them?]

David Oldfield

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31/12/12 – 07:10

The original livery was cream/green and it was Donnington, this bus was part a fleet of Sentinels that belonged to H. Brown and Sons, H. Brown being Harry Brown who was my late great grandfather, look at Made in Shrewsbury for history of the Sentinels.

Does anyone know where this bus is now?

Phil Brown

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31/12/12 – 12:35

The past year has been a torrid time for Aston Manor Museum staff, first moving to what they thought was a secure site, then having to move again. Transferring, by road, some frail items, like part-trams and other barely roadworthy vehicles, proved difficult. They are still near their original site, however and, I assume, GUJ 608 is still with them. They hope to re-open around Easter.

Chris Hebbron

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01/01/13 – 11:41

There is an earlier reference to Camplejohn Bros. This company operated in the Barnsley area before being acquired Yorkshire Traction.
They operated a number of Sentinels most of which can be seen here: www.jsh1949.co.uk/

Andrew Beever

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01/01/13 – 17:32

Re the above link to pics of Camplejohn vehicles, the TTC 882 depicted was, as can be seen but not expressly stated, an Atkinson Alpha. All the other vehicles shown were Sentinels – apart from the obvious Dennis Lancet, of course.

David Call

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15/01/13 – 06:14

Stumbled across the picture of the blue Sentinel. I remember the first of these being operated by A C Wigmore (1949) on their Dinnington to Sheffield service. They seemed so modern and advanced when compared to the cab single deck Leylands, operated by East Midlands. As a small boy, I would always watch for this new bus and I remember keeping a blue chalk drawn sketch of it on the inside of my school desk, all through the year. How I wished to drive one!

David Ives

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15/01/13 – 14:46

I’ve recently had a visit to the new AMRTM site and my report is at www.focustransport.org.uk/  Due to the building’s smaller size many of their vehicles are being stored off site, and I am assuming this is also the case of the Sentinel which is not at the new site. AMRTM now have a facebook page to keep people up to date about their collection.

Ken Jones

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15/01/13 – 16:36

The AMRTM Sentinel belongs to Richard Gray who is a Director. It is I believe at their off site storage and not on display.
A sister vehicle belonging to Dave Wheatley of Kenilworth is currently undergoing restoration and I understand could be roadworthy in late 2013

Roger Burdett


12/08/13 – 10:06

It is good to see the old sentinels again that I used to drive on the service route Donnington to Oakengates and also help maintain them.
They were great years and I believe Browns were the first to introduce one man operated vehicles and later were one of or maybe the first who introduced exact fair payment on entrance.
I used to drive both of the above with HNT 49 being the faster of the two able to do some 45 mph.
Brilliant years.

John Millington


12/08/13 – 14:23

When I was in the RAF at Patrington, East Yorkshire in 1955/6 we often travelled on the buses and coaches of Connor and Graham of Easington, Spurn Point. The small firm had a most interesting and varied fleet, one of which was a Sentinel JWF 176, acquired new. My memories of it are of a comfortable and, for the time, spritely vehicle. On occasions it would operate the 2300 hours on Sunday evenings from Leeds Bridge Street back to our Camp. I’ll never forget the time when JWF 176 arrived, driven by a disgruntled chap called "Jock" who didn’t know the meaning of the phrase "vehicle sympathy." In the early hours of Monday morning as we sped downhill past the race course into sleepy Beverley the exhaust silencer blew open – without even reducing velocity one iota Jock sped on towards the even sleepier Holderness – I wouldn’t be surprised if all the good residents of the many villages en route scrambled for their WW2 gas masks and tin shelters, under the impression that the War was not over after all. The RAF Police sergeant in the guardroom, and his Alsatian, were overcome with shock………… and the epic journey passed into history !!

Chris Youhill


 

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Rotherham Corporation – Bristol K6B – EET 580 – 180

Rotherham Corporation - Bristol K6B - EET 580 - 180
Copyright Ian Wild

Rotherham Corporation
1949
Bristol K6B
East Lancs H30/26R

Rotherham was an enthusiastic Bristol operator until they became no longer available to non Tilling Companies. 180 is one of a batch of four Bristol L6B originally with Bruce B32C bodies delivered in 1949 and all rebodied in 1951 (only two years later) by East Lancs as H30/26R double deckers.

The photo was taken in August 1967 at the Chapeltown terminus of service 16. My information doesn’t include any withdrawal dates but the bus was a creditable 18 years old at the time.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

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180 lasted in service until 1967, one year later than the other three.

Chris Hebbron

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Ah! Blue and cream – almost as good as cream and blue (Sheffield).
Living in the far South West of Sheffield, I lived just about as far from Rotherham as I could be and the 69 went to Exchange Street, not Pond Street Bus Station. I am a fan of Bristol engined Bristols but wasn’t aware of Rotherham’s Bristols until long after they had gone. It was the AECs and Daimlers that I remember – and of course the AECs were actually in the minority.
Ironically, Rotherham was to become significant to me – as a musician – in later years, and still is today.

David Oldfield

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What a coincidence, David. I too lived on the south west side of Sheffield. I was at a training centre in Rawmarsh for 6 months during the winter of 1962/3 and travelled daily by bus. The 69 of course was a joint Sheffield/Rotherham service, Rotherham’s contribution almost exclusively being a Crossley. Rotherham had one single lady driver which was unusual in those days but she was a complete master (mistress?) of the Crossleys. Sheffield used their three ‘stock’ all Leyland PD2s (601-603), with their none standard destination displays on the 69. I seem to remember them having a brown seating material rather than Sheffield standard.
From Rotherham I travelled to Rawmarsh by Mexborough and Swinton. Their lowbridge Atlanteans were quite unusual to my eyes although later I worked for a fleet with 105 of them! Best thing about M&S was the almost exclusive use of conductresses, many of them rather attractive!!
Does anyone have any photos of the M&S Atlanteans?

Ian Wild

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The interesting question is, why were these vehicles re-bodied after only two years? It’s inconceivable that the Bruce bodies would have been unserviceable after such a short time, I believe Bruce had a good reputation and weren’t they associated with East Lancs? Was it the case that Rotherham suddenly had a desperate need for double deckers? and were the original bodies re-used on other chassis?
Did the fact that they were single deck chassis have any effect on the rear platform of the re-bodied vehicles, such as the Wallace Arnold re-bodied Daimlers for Kippax and Farsley with their two-step platforms?

Chris Barker

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And it wasn’t a cheap conversion, either. They were delivered as Bristol L6B’s, which were single decker chassis. The Bruce bodies were classified B32C’s which suggests that they were originally coaches rather than single-deck buses. The chassis were then rebuilt to K6B standard and fitted with the East Lancs double decker bodies. It’s likely that even the gearbox/axle ratios needed changing. But, as Chris B says, what were the ‘coaches’ originally planned for?

Chris Hebbron

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Two-step platforms: there was a fashion for these in the early 50’s: Doncaster had some new Roes in the 120’s with two step platforms and cranked seats- was it a way of dealing with 7ft 6in widths for narrow streets (or narrow washers depending which version you prefer)?

Joe

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I wonder if it was something to do with Rotherham getting wind of the impending loss of access to new Bristols. They may have taken whatever they could get hold of before the stable door was finally locked and bolted, on the basis that a 6B is a 6B, whatever happens to be sitting on top of it. It is quite probable that there would be a second-hand market for four good-quality coach bodies no more than two years old. From an accounting point of view it is quite likely that the subsequent rebodying would be done through the maintenance budget. So there would be few questions asked (however much it cost), compared with the approval process for purchasing new capital stock.

Stephen Ford

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PSV Circle fleet supplement P71R dated October 1963 provides further information. Eight 1949 Bristol L6Bs were rebodied with double deck bodies in 1951, fleet numbers 112-114 and 179-184. The displaced single deck bodies were fitted to prewar L5Gs fleet numbers 137/140/142/143 of 1938 and 159-162 of 1939. Of these, at least 137 etc originally had Cravens bodies. All were withdrawn in 1957/1958. Please note these B32C bodies were bus bodies (not coach)- the C refers to central entrance which seems to have been a Rotherham speciality as the Cravens bodies were of the same configuration.

Ian Wild

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Following on from Ians comment, centre entrances were very common in this area. Rotherham also ran many centre entrance single decker Daimler trolleybuses, a number of which were rebodied at a very young age with Roe double deck bodies. Rotherham were the joint operator with Mexborough and Swinton on services between Rotherham and Conisborough via Mexborough. Most of the ‘tracklesses’ operated by the Mexborough system were centre entrance with only a few very early examples and some wartime second hand vehicles bucking the trend. One of the latest centre door vehicles that I can think of in that area was a Doncaster CT Regal IV that from new was equipped with a centre door body albeit rebuilt to dual entrance later in life.

Dates relevant to the bus shown in the photo above are:-
Date into service – March 1949 (original body was by Bruce on East Lancs frames)
Chassis modified from L6B to K6B and rebodied by East Lancs in April 1951
Withdrawn October 1967 it passed to Autospares of Bingley for scrap in December 1967.
The original single deck body was used to rebody the refurbished chassis of a 1940 L5G of the CET 44x batch numbers 159 – 162

Andrew Charles

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27/02/11 – 12:00

Some interesting comments here, but does putting a double-deck body on a Bristol L make it a K? I grew up in Bristol and remember all the rebodying that went on but Bristol Omnibus never did a single to double deck conversion. The L chassis was 27′ 6" long, the K 26′ but, by the time of Rotherham’s rebodying, double deckers were allowed to be 27′ long. So how long was 180? Rotherham went on to buy the KS chassis, the only non-Tilling operator to do so; comparing photo-graphs of the two, 180 is almost certainly 26′ long, so the chassis had to be shortened to fit the new double deck body.

Geoff Kerr

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Old Bus Photos from Saturday 25th April 2009 to Monday 20th October 2014