Old Bus Photos

Walsall Corporation – Sunbeam F4 – NDH 958 – 341

Walsall Corporation - Sunbeam F4 - NDH 958 - 341
Copyright Tony Martin

Walsall Corporation
1951
Sunbeam F4
Brush H30/26R

Former Walsall Corporation 341, by August 1970 owned by the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive, leaves Walsall Bus Station for Blakenhall. It is a Sunbeam F4 with much rebuilt Brush body and should be showing route 15. In the background is former Birmingham City 2593 registration JOJ 593, a 1951 MCW H54R bodied Guy Arab IV, transferred to Walsall in February 1970 with others to partially replace the trolleybuses, though it and its sisters were as old as the vehicles they replaced!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

———

07/12/12 – 06:55

Nice view, Tony. Thanks for sharing. Others on this site have commented on the full front Vs half cab arrangement of motor buses, citing the amount the driver could or could not see on his nearside – among other factors – yet MOST trolley buses were full front.

Pete Davies

———

07/12/12 – 08:11

Just speculation but I wonder if the use of full fronts on most trolleybuses was to protect the control gear from water ingress as this was generally on the bulkhead where the engine would be on a motor bus.

Phil Blinkhorn

———

07/12/12 – 08:12

Surely, Pete, the driver of a Trolley knew that the nearside window was the limit of its width, whereas the problem in the half cab was that the front nearside corner disappeared if a high bonnet obscured the mudguards? Anyone know first hand? Presumably the mirror, if mounted on the nearside corner was a help. Do you remember when you, the driver, could see the front of your car?!

Joe

———

07/12/12 – 09:56

Actually, Joe, the discussion I remember was about how much less the driver could see with a full front! In the event, the rear engine came along, with the door directly opposite the driver, and the argument was stifled. There was a similar sort of discussion when I was working, and about half the folk who commented said they liked the tip-up seats in shelters and the other half hated them. They went off the market after too many people fell off and the makers’ insurance company jacked up the premium. In a way, I suppose, those who hated the things won.

Pete Davies

———

07/12/12 – 13:34

I wonder if the issue with full front buses was steaming up in that awkwardly inaccessible left hand cabin. This would probably be more of an issue with the rising emissions from internal combustion engines than the drier warmth from electrical machines. This would not be a problem with rear engine buses of course, and the passenger door gave easy access to the nearside front screen if necessary. I guess everyone will know that the original fleet of Notts & Derbys trolleybuses were half-cabs.

Stephen Ford

———

08/12/12 – 09:26

I have heard that the cabs of Walsall’s F4As, with their curved glass windscreens gave excellent visibility. There is one behind 341 above and my photo of 872 which is elsewhere on this site.

Tony Martin

———

08/12/12 – 09:27

A lot of early t/buses were halfcab, because they probably thought they should look like buses. Some even had fake radiators. The 1931 London ‘Diddlers’ were halfcab with a central headlamp on the bonnet front, a la trams!

Chris Hebbron

———

08/12/12 – 09:28

The Notts & Derby trolleybuses that Stephen refers to had the motor and associated electrical equipment under the bonnet (with ‘dummy’ radiator with the AEC/English Electric badge attached). The London United ‘Diddler’ trolleybuses also had the motor under the bonnet but no attempt was made to provide a ‘dummy’ radiator but there was a single headlamp in the panel where a radiator would have been. There were other instances of trolleybuses with half cabs – Birmingham Corporation for example. Most trolleybuses had the motor located between the chassis side members under the lower saloon floor with a short prop shaft to the rear axle. With this arrangement there was no need to provide a half cab arrangement and the nearside of the full width cab was usually taken up with the contactor cabinet, although some operators, like London Transport, opted to have the contactor cabinet mounted on the nearside of the chassis with access via flap in the vehicle’s ‘skirt’ (or ‘valance’ – depending on which term you choose to use).

Michael Elliott


 

Quick links to the  -  Comments Page  -  Contact Page  -  Home Page

 


 

Nottingham City Transport – Daimler Fleetline – 62 NAU – 62

Nottingham City Transport - Daimler Fleetline - 62 NAU - 62
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Nottingham City Transport
1962
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Park Royal H77F

October 2012 saw the 50th anniversary of the introduction of rear engined buses by Nottingham City Transport. The subject of the image is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX, fleet number 62, registration number 62 NAU. It had a Park Royal H77F body. It was delivered new to NCT on 12.12.62 and entered service on 18.12.62. It is seen here at the Farnborough Road/Pastures Avenue, Clifton Estate, terminus of service 68 when new and is loading passengers for a journey to Broad Marsh Bus Station in Nottingham via Clifton Bridge (service 68 journeys operated by South Notts and West Bridgford UDC ran via Trent Bridge). The large Daimler badges with which 62 and others of the batch (nos 46 to 63) were fitted when delivered were quickly removed and replaced by a Daimler scroll, as there was an air intake at this location and the large badge partially obscured this. This year also saw, on 29th October, the 60th anniversary of the introduction of the joint service operated by NCT, South Notts and WBUDC to Clifton Estate, although the 68 was not introduced until 1956 when the initial development of the estate was nearing completion.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Elliott

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

———

04/12/12 – 15:44

50 NAU_lr

With reference to the posting above of 62 NAU when new, here is a view of one of her sisters, 50 NAU, towards the end of her working life. She is seen peering out of the doorway of the Burwell & District depot in Burwell on 25 August 1978. Nottingham’s livery always was one of the smarter ones and the view of 62 does it credit.

Pete Davies

———

04/12/12 – 16:58

This is a good example of a well applied livery helping to ease the rather brutal lines of the ‘Orion’ derived body design. The tasteful layout of the fleet name and the red wheels set off the green very well. I remember one of this batch coming to Rochdale to be shown to the Transport Committee in the Autumn of 1962. It was probably brand new and was parked outside the Town Hall along with the light blue AEC Renown demonstrator and the Leyland Atlantean demonstrator in Maidstone & District style green and cream. It was just after the 1962 Commercial Motor Show at which the Renown made its debut. Rochdale chose the Fleetline for its next double deck purchases.

Philip Halstead

———

05/12/12 – 07:39

Interestingly in Pete’s picture 50 NAU has a much more modern windscreen and front panel than 62 yet has retained, or had re-applied, the large Daimler badge.

Eric Bawden

———

05/12/12 – 07:40

As has been mentioned before on this site, Northern General allowed their subsidiaries a certain amount of independence when it came to vehicle buying and spec. Between 1960 and 62 Percy Main acquired 25 Leyland PDR1/1 Atlanteans, ‘9 Metro Cammell and 16 Roe’ but then while most of the rest of NGT were still ordering Leyland’s Percy Main switched to CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines. Between 1963 and 68 they took delivery of 35 in total, the first two batches of 10 and 5 were MCW’s and the remaining 20 arrived in three batches of 7 – 3 and 10 and were all Alexander bodied. I could be wrong about this, but I believe orders for more were cancelled when NBC came into being, but from my experience of driving both the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle to the Atlantean, but like the AEC Reliance, the Bristol REL and the FRM Routemaster they didn’t fit into NBC and BL’s ‘master plan’

Ronnie Hoye

———

05/12/12 – 08:03

50 NAU was fitted with the 1964 pattern windscreen and dash arrangement following accident damage circa 1968/69. From memory it ran off the road on Carlton Hill and hit a house. At the time of the accident it was allocated to Bilborough Depot and was working a ‘works special’.

Michael Elliott

———

05/12/12 – 09:19

Peter mentioned he was sure someone would comment upon the newer front end on the Burwell vehicle. It looks to me like a ‘Manchester’ lower panel, as Birmingham had on some of theirs towards the end of 1966, but I had no idea why it should have been treated. Thank you, Michael, for enlightening us.

Ronnie, interesting comment about the freedom of operation in the NGT group. I suppose it is hardly surprising that the same degree of freedom seems to have filtered throughout what is now the ‘Go Ahead’ group. There has been discussion on this site in the past about the NBC and BL ‘master plan’, and we all know what happened to both!

Pete Davies

———

05/12/12 – 10:40

Philip, slightly off topic but was it my imagination that the lower deck window line on all of Rochdale’s Fleetlines was higher than normal or were the wheels smaller?
Compare www.flickr.com/
with www.sct61,org.uk/
Back to Nottingham, I often wonder if the department’s development of their own unique body style which, like the various developments or not were at least different and interesting to look at, was a reaction to the bland Orionism of early rear engined bodies or just a determination to be different.

Phil Blinkhorn

———

05/12/12 – 10:57

Pete, that’s not a Manchester panel, see www.sct61.org.uk/ for the differences

Phil Blinkhorn

———

05/12/12 – 11:55

Thank you, Phil B

Pete Davies

———

05/12/12 – 17:54

The Daimler badge fitted to 50 NAU was not the original `large` one, but the shorter version, common on most Fleetlines.
I found the appropriate part no. in the Fleetline parts list and ordered 4 from the local BL parts dealer, they duly arrived, price around £18 + VAT and were fitted to 50/53/61/3 NAU.
By the time 56 NAU arrived at Burwell, (via Ensign) I had secured a supply of the original `longer` badges that had been supplied to Walsall Corporation, but were too long to fit on the rounded front panels of their `short` Fleetlines.
I won`t reveal how much I paid, but it was less than £18 each! (I still have one wrapped in the original VERY sticky waxed paper)

Jim Neale

———

05/12/12 – 17:55

To answer Phil on the Rochdale Fleetlines, yes you are right they did have the lower saloon window line about a foot higher than normal. The reason was that despite the Fleetline having a drop-centre rear axle, Rochdale adopted a two step entrance with a high floor line throughout the lower saloon. In my view this had two negative affects. Firstly, it made the buses look very ungainly from a three-quarter front view and secondly, as the lower driving position was retained it put the driver in a very intimidating low position against boarding passengers. This must have been an especially uncomfortable position for drivers when later on these buses were used for opo with fare paying passengers towering above them. To me these were some of the ugliest buses ever built and massive contrast to the previous Regent V’s.

Philip Halstead

———

06/12/12 – 07:12

Thanks Philip. I always thought they were odd. I used to see them regularly in the 1960s and 1970s but was normally driving past them, so couldn’t study them closely, and I never rode on one.
They certainly were ungainly looking – not helped by the acres of cream paint, the SELNEC livery, for once did help a bit.

Phil Blinkhorn

———

06/12/12 – 11:46

Picking up the thread of Philip H’s comments on bad design. The safest layout for stairs on any type of double decker are those were you ascend towards the front of the vehicle. Worst that can happen if the driver anchors up sharply is that anyone on the stairs will either fall forwards if they’re going up, or end up on their backside if coming down, but it’s unlikely they will end up in a heap at the bottom. That said, for some reason know best to whoever ordered them, the second batch of MCW Daimler Fleetline’s delivered to Percy Main JFT 276/80, had the stairs going the other way, in the same case scenario people on the stairs will fall backwards or go head first base over apex, but the only way they can go is in the direction of down. As well as in my opinion being dangerous, the layout also reduced the seating capacity by three, so a bad idea all round I would have thought

Ronnie Hoye


 

Quick links to the  -  Comments Page  -  Contact Page  -  Home Page

 


 

Booth & Fisher – Bedford OB – MNU 80

Booth & Fisher - Bedford OB - MNU 80

Booth & Fisher
1948
Bedford OB
Allsop C29F

Boothies ran a wonderful eclectic collection of O type Bedfords built by a range of different firms. MNU 80 is an example of less common Allsop bodywork, and is seen, I think, outside Sheffield’s Midland Station.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson


30/11/12 – 07:49

MNU is a Derbyshire registration from 1948. I suppose it would have been new to B&F.

Geoff Kerr


30/11/12 – 13:32

According to the Booth and Fisher fleet history on the Peter Gould site, this vehicle is described as C29F. The vehicle was new in 1948 and withdrawn in 1968. The location is Sheffield Midland Station and the vehicle would probably be operating on hire to British Railways to ferry train crew etc to Tinsley or other locations in the Sheffield area.

Stephen Bloomfield

Thanks Stephen ?s corrected


01/12/12 – 07:33

Greyhound (Alexander) used to have that contract I think, but not sure if that was before, or after, Boothies. Thanks for the info.

Les Dickinson


01/12/12 – 11:49

East Midland and Sheffield United Tours also operated this contract. For a time in late 1968 BR ran ex Mansfield District AEC Regal KRR 261 operated the service. It was still in green and cream but carried the BR double arrow symbol. See previous discussion on this site re this operation

Stephen Bloomfield


02/12/12 – 07:26

Fascinating stuff! Does anyone have details of who had contract year by year? It obviously got shared around a bit over the years.

Les Dickinson


13/07/13 – 08:00

Where were Allsop bodies built and what was the full title of the company, any one please?

Mike Holloway


03/10/13 – 08:44

The following site gives a tiny amount of information about Allsop (about two thirds of the way down):- http://nonsequitur.freeforums.org  
Thomas Allsop Ltd., Penistone Road North, Sheffield, Yorks., active from 1926 to 1949.

Roger Cox


03/10/13 – 14:32

It would be interesting to know what their production amounted to during their active years. They bodied two Daimler CVD6 coaches for Trumans of Shirebrook in 1947 (LRA 558/9) which were quite attractive and I seem to recall a former employee of Naylors of South Normanton telling me that Allsop’s carried out some refurbishment work for them on their pre-war coaches after WW2.

Chris Barker


04/10/13 – 15:07

Booth & Fisher used to run to Coal Aston via Brammall Lane. They went to Meadowhead, took a left then right down Dyche lane to Coal Aston. All very countrified in the 50s & early 60s. I remember this coach. They sometimes ran a bus type bodywork, with the emergency door at the rear. I do not know where their stand was in town, but maybe it was just outside the main bus station, being a small operator.

Andy Fisher


04/10/13 – 17:16

Whilst ever Halfway was in Derbyshire and Booth & Fisher were independent, they were condemned to outer darkness. Their stop was on Ellin Street, off Eyre Street, off the bottom of the Moor. Nowhere near Pond Street bus station.

David Oldfield


08/10/13 – 07:46

Just searching through views on the Stilltime Collection recently referred to on this site, I found a picture of sister Booth & Fisher Bedford, MNU 79 together with Royal Tiger SNU 435. I just entered Derby and Bus and it was on the last page of thumbnails.

Chris Barker


03/02/14 – 07:27

It’s Thomas Allsop Ltd (only one P)! I should know as it was my great grandads business! I don’t know a great deal about it, but my uncle knows a bit. I have a picture of an old vehicle (pick up truck with solid rear wheels) that was sign written at Matthew Street Sheffield. They then started at Penistone Road and was in partnership with a guy called Kitson?

Neil Allsop


03/02/14 – 08:24

Great to hear from a direct descendant Neil. I have seen in some of the PSV Circle listings that historically, many vehicles went to Allsop, Sheffield for scrapping. Do you know if that is the same business, or a related business, as your Great-Grandad as an operator? Would really like to know more about the company if you learn any more from your uncle. I wonder if the Kitson was the one that was a founder-member of the firm that eventually became Sheffield United Tours?

Les Dickinson


 

Quick links to the  -  Comments Page  -  Contact Page  -  Home Page

 


 

All rights to the design and layout of this website are reserved     Old Bus Photos does not set or use Cookies but Google Analytics will set four see this

Old Bus Photos from Saturday 25th April 2009 to Thursday 5th May 2016