Llandudno UDC
1968
Dennis Pax V
Dennis B33F
In the latter months of 1968 Llandudno UDC replaced its two Foden PVSC6 coaches, www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ used on the exceedingly steep
Great Orme route, with two specially constructed Dennis Pax V buses with Dennis B33F bodywork,
registered FJC 736/7F. After the delivery of the last five production Lolines to Halifax in 1967 Dennis
had effectively abandoned the bespoke passenger vehicle market, and these were flat framed haulage
chassis powered by Perkins 6.354 engines coupled to Dennis U type gearboxes (not, as suggested elsewhere
on the internet, David Brown gearboxes). The specially constructed bus bodies, the very last built by
Dennis, were delivered in a new livery of blue and cream. The Perkins 6.354 was ever a raucous power
unit (I write from experience) and the din inside these buses during the steepest sections of the ascent
of the Great Orme must surely have been deafening for drivers and passengers alike, though the standard
of ride is said to have been good. Does any OBP aficionado have personal experience of these machines?
The photograph was taken in September 1970. On 1st April 1974 Llandudno UDC was subsumed into the new
Aberconwy District Council and the two Dennis Pax buses were repainted into a livery of maroon and grey,
subsequently maroon and cream. Sadly, FJC 737F was later destroyed, reputably by fire, but FJC 736F
survives in a restored condition.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
11/08/22 - 05:52
I may have been partly responsible for spreading the idea that these Dennises
had David Brown gearboxes. The information came from Nick Larkin, one-time owner of FJC 736F, when
he loaned it to a group of enthusiasts in Chesterfield. As a passenger I believed him, because not
only was the arrangement of the gears the same as on the David Brown gearbox of the Bristol SC, but
it even exhibited the same characteristic of catching out the unwary driver by moving off in reverse
instead of second, which I have heard a Bristol SC owner talk about. It scaled Slack Hill in second
gear, and almost repeated the achievement at Cromford, only resorting to first at the very top,
after turning into Porter Lane. I can’t say I noticed the noise level inside, but those waiting with
cameras outside certainly did! As to liveries, the first Aberconwy DC scheme I would describe as
vermilion and grey rather than maroon and grey, and I haven’t seen in-service photos of anything
later except blue and advertising schemes. I have been assuming that the new owner’s pseudo
Llandudno UDC maroon and cream is a ‘should have been’ statement.
Peter Williamson
12/08/22 - 05:55
Peter W, you’ve just confirmed my recollection of this vehicle, I felt sure
I’d had a ride on it and it was at one of Transpire’s Running Days in Chesterfield about ten years
ago. I would agree that it was somewhat noisy inside but not unbearably so. I also remember the
gearstick being behind the driver to his left, in the same manner as a Bedford SB. It was an
interesting ride but I couldn’t help thinking it wasn’t really meant to be a bus though!
Chris Barker
14/08/22 - 05:43
I have driven Bristol SC and SU buses, both of which had the David Brown
gearbox, but the gear lever selection positions of the two types differed. On both, the reverse and
first gears were located on the far left, forward for reverse, back for first, and these gears were
‘protected’ from the rest of the box by a detente spring that became very weak over time. From
there, cautiously moving right in neutral, next came forward for second and back for third, which is
how the accidental engagement of reverse instead of second sometimes occurred when the detente
spring had weakened. The SCs and SUs that I drove were all secondhand examples run by an independent
operator, consequently far from pristine in condition. My technique to avoid the unintended launch
in reverse was to deliberately engage reverse on the far left of the box, then carefully go back
into neutral and let the stick gently move with the spring to the correct point to allow the forward
engagement of second. This took less time to do that it does to describe. Even then I would
cautiously engage the clutch to ensure the vehicle was going where I wanted it to go. After the
third gear position the SC and the SU differed. To move from third to fourth in the SC one took the
stick forward into neutral, over to the right and then back again in an inverted U movement, and
then fifth was fully forward from that slot. The SU was more logical, and followed the positioning
of the AEC Reliance five speed box, over and forward for fourth and back for fifth. Unsurprisingly,
I have never driven a Dennis Pax, but the excellent gearbox in the Dennis Loline III also followed
the Reliance selection format, and never once driving these for Aldershot and District did I
accidentally engage reverse instead of second. Descriptions of the U type five speed gearbox show
that it emulated the Loline box in gear stick positions, which explains the possibility of starting
off in reverse, but Dennis gearboxes were fine pieces of engineering, and I can only assume that the
protective detente spring in FJC 736F has suffered severely over time. Incidentally, one could never
fall into this trap with a Reliance because the gear lever had to be lifted over a ramp to engage
first and reverse, so you couldn’t easily get first whilst on the move - it was essentially a
crawler gear. On the livery question, is the maroon and cream of the little Guy Wolf accurate?
Roger Cox
15/08/22 - 06:41
The gear positions on FJC 736F were definitely the same as on the SC, complete
with inverted U from 3 to 4. Our driver only forgot once, going straight from 3 to 5 and then
quickly correcting. So maybe it has been fitted with a David Brown box at some time on its
travels.
Peter Williamson
17/08/22 - 06:30
My apologies, Peter. That, as you describe it, is the David Brown gearbox as
fitted to the Bristol SC, which is somewhat puzzling. The SC was produced from 1954 to 1961, and its
successor, the SU with improved gear selection, from 1960 to 1966. Why would a mere two bus bodied
examples of a widely sold Dennis haulage chassis, with a proven drive train of Perkins 6.354 engine
and Dennis U type gearbox, appear late in 1968 with an old 1961 type of David Brown box? Surely
these two machines didn’t emerge from Guildford in that form. Quite apart from assessing the dubious
mechanical benefit of the David Brown box, the re-engineering would have simply increased costs to
no discernible advantage - quite the opposite in my view. As far as I am aware, the only alternative
gearbox offered by Dennis around that time was the Turner synchromesh. This seemingly
straightforward post on the Llandudno Dennis Pax buses has taken a curious turn. Can anyone add to
this aspect of the history of these vehicles?
Roger Cox
18/08/22 - 06:42
I remember the two Dennis taking over the Great Orme service from the Fodens
but I don’t recall travelling on the Dennis but made several trips over the years on each of the
Fodens. The Fodens were fitted with a sprag brake, effectively a ratchet which dropped into a pawl
on the transmission when activated by the driver. This was used on the upward journey where the very
steep 1 in 4 started just below a terrace of houses and remained in use until about the Half Way
station for the tram. This was to prevent a runaway in the event of the engine stalling. Does anyone
know if the Dennis pair had this device?
Ian Wild
