In 1936-1937, Portsmouth Corporation took delivery of 30 buses of the above type, which had all, bar one (a bomb casualty), been whittled away between 1955 and 1960. I moved to Portsmouth in 1956, but spent much of this period in the RAF/London and so don't ever recall seeing one of this type. I'm wondering if the bodies of these bore any resemblance to the Cravens trolleybus bodies I recently wrote about. Can anyone put their hands on a photo of one of these, to kill my curiosity?
Chris Hebbron
23/01/12 - 15:56
Regrettably, I do not have any photos of this batch in my collection either - they were being withdrawn just as I was getting into bus enthusiasm. I do remember them well, usually running on J/K service (Highbury/Wymering) or works services from the Dockyard and the occasional school trip to the playing fields or swimming baths (as a non-sports person, this was the best part of the afternoon, whatever the vehicle). There is a distinct family resemblance to the trolleybuses, however. This is not just fifty-year old memories, but also a browse through this site. The "Leyland Cheetah" section shows two Cravens TD4s to the left of the picture - not an overall view, but sufficient to see a similarity in roof line. As with the Cravens trolleybuses, rebuilding in the 1950's did not alter their appearance. In the book History of British Bus Services No 1 South East (Colin Morris), there is a picture of No 138 in the 1950s. On a preceding page, there is a picture of Cravens trolleybus 246, and the resemblances can be compared. I think the only distinction is that the trolleybus roof is slightly more rounded / domed? but that maybe due to the photographer's angle with the TD4. I always thought that the 12 post-war bodies supplied by Reading & Co to the Corporation also resembled the Cravens/TD4. Although the cab areas are different to suit the PD1 or Crossley DD42 arrangements, the rest has a striking similarity. This was especially so upstairs interior, where even the vents in the panel over the front windows had a similar polished wood covering. (See the Crossley entry on this site for an external picture of a Crossley/Reading). As Readings bodied double-deckers for Provincial in the same era (on AEC and Guy chassis) with similar appearance, did their designer admire the Cravens style and complete his drawings to reflect this? Somewhere, I have seen a picture of a Cravens Leyland TD4 (or TD5?) of Sheffield Corporation, and this too was similar to the Portsmouth deliveries, so presumably both took a Cravens standard product of the time.
Michael Hampton
24/01/12 - 05:50
Early metal framed bodies by Leyland were literally a disaster on wheels. As a result, Cravens were the standard body for Sheffield Corporation Leylands from 1934 to 1939. Only with the introduction of the new Leyland body on TD5s in 1939 did Sheffield return to Leyland bodies. They then only had Cravens Regent IIIs - as featured recently - in 1949/50.
David Oldfield
24/01/12 - 15:51
Not sure whether this will help or not, but just as Chris Youhill never misses an opportunity to promote Samuel Ledgard (and why not), so I am always inclined to slip in a reference to Nottingham City Transport! Nottingham bought a batch of 45 AEC Regents with Cravens bodies in 1937. These would have been just about contemporary with the Pompey TD4s, and so may have been similar if not identical. I understand they proved rather sub-standard, and were all rather expensively rebuilt in the late 1940s. Here is a link showing one in rebuilt condition about 1949 www.flickr.com/ - Michael might like to comment on whether it is how he remembers the TD4s. (The other pictures in this contributor's photostream are also well worth looking at.)
Stephen Ford
25/01/12 - 05:59
Thx, Michael H, for the information, which sheds some light on these vehicles. I can understand why I never say one, even with my limited opportunity, if they lurked around Highbury/Wymering, whereas I lived at Eastney. Providing clues, using pointers with the Reading bodied Crossleys and Leyland Cheetah photo, give a flavour of their looks. I shall have to try and get a copy of the book you mention for a (literally) better picture! And thx, David/Stephen, too, for your postings.
Chris Hebbron
26/01/12 - 05:55
Thanks to Stephen Ford for his link to the Nottingham Craven's bodied AEC Regents. One of these (DAU 462) was purchased by Provincial (Gosport & Fareham) along with an earlier Met-Cam bodied Regent in 1954, the Cravens one running until 1961. (Two more Met.Cam ones came in 1955). I don't especially remember seeing this, but it is marked as a "cop" in my trusty ABC of that era! Looking at Stephen's link photo, and also a picture of it in Provincial livery in the Provincial history I have, the resemblance to the Portsmouth TD4 Cravens has to be studied. It's quite surprising how the livery differences of both Nottingham and Provincial disguise resemblances to the Portsmouth bodies. Also the cab area is again different - a curved lower driver's windscreen on the AEC, and a straight one on the Portsmouth TD4. There was discussion on the Portsmouth PD1/Weymann contribution about Leyland's insistence on that post-war model of supplying a front cab sheet which precluded any curvature in the lower edge of the windscreen. I have never read that Leyland did this on the pre-war TD3-TD7 range, but perhaps they did. However, on close comparison, I suspect that the same body shell design is in use for all of these Cravens vehicles, with only minor differences for operator specification / chassis design.
Michael Hampton
06/09/19 - 06:02
I lived as a young child in Festing Road Southsea and can confirm pre-war Craven TD4s were employed on the then A/B route Paulsgrove - Guildhall - S. Parade Pier - COPNOR - Cosham Red Lion as well as the J/K route Highbury Estate - Cosham Rly Gates - Sixth Avenue - Wymering (Sevenoaks Road/Wymering Lane) circular. The A/B route in the early 1950s besides run by the TD4s was shared by the early post-war Weymann and Reading Bodied PD1s as also with Leyland chassis Leyland bodied PD2s supplied at that time to so many UK companies.
I can confirm that these Craven bodies supplied by the Sheffield firm supplied to the petrol TD4s were the same supplied to the trolleybuses that ran on most of the maximum 9 trolleybus routes in the mid 1950s. The subsequent batch of 15 Burlingham bodied BUT trolleybuses supplied in 1951 to Portsmouth Corporation (301-315), we're usually employed on services 5/6 Dockyard - Clarendon Road, - S. Parade Pier - Eastney - Milton - Copnor Bridge - Cosham Red Lion and 15/16 (a duplicate service from Eastney to Chichester Road junction) then North End - Alexandra Park.
These 2 services were operated by Burlinghams only and only sometimes were operated by the Craven bodied trolleybuses.
Incidentally here are photos to prove that the Burlingham trolleybuses operated on the comparatively shortlived 9/10 route Cosham - Guildhall - Circle - Victoria Road - Fratton Road - Cosham.
Hope this clarifies.
Bernard Robinson
No photos attached, emailed Bernard but no reply so I will not hold back the informative comment.
Peter
19/09/19 - 06:37
A photo of two of these buses can now be found at: old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=12921
Chris Hebbron
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