Old Bus Photos

Hull Corporation – Leyland TB2 – CRH 928 – 3

Hull Corporation Leyland TB2 Trolleybus CRH 928_lr 

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
Leyland TB2
1937
Weymann H28/26R

The first trolleybus route in Hull commenced in June, 1937. It replaced the tram route SWC, but not directly, as a short lived motorbus service, numbered 12 ran in the interval between the end of the trams and the start of the trolleybuses. The route ran along Spring Bank, Spring Bank West and Chanterlands Avenue. A new route number series for trolleybuses was instituted at this time, the first number being 61, along with a short working to Goddard Avenue turning circle, which was numbered 61A. This latter was renumbered to 65 in 1943.
To start the service, along with the Newland Avenue (62, 62A) routes, 26 trolleybus chassis were purchased from Leyland. These were of the TB2 type, equivalent to the Titan TD2 chassis. Numbers were 1 to 26, which commenced a separate series from the motorbuses. Registrations were CRH 925-50. The trolleybuses carried the newly introduced streamline livery.
During the war, in 1941, due to service cuts four trolleybuses (1 to 4) were loaned to Pontypridd UDC, being returned the following year. No 3 is shown at the Old Bridge in Pontypridd, seeming to be causing interest to the gentleman on the bridge! Although still carrying the streamline livery, the white has been over painted in a light blue colour, making the livery a two-tone blue. Of note is the pre-war "HULL" on the upper deck side panels, and "Corporation Transport" being on white lozenges.
I have seen this batch also quoted as being of the TB4 type, but if anyone can provide a definitive answer I would be grateful. Chassis numbers were in the series 12280 to 12306.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton


I wonder who over-painted the white to light blue – Hull or Pontypridd? Interesting photo – not many wartime photos exist, especially of those who went to foreign climes for a while!
Headlamps restricted and white painting around the front edge, but no window netting. Maybe they didn’t feel there was a strong likelihood of air raids in that area.
Pontypridd must have had an acute shortage of buses/trolleybuses in the war, for Portsmouth Corporation sent several trolleybuses there, too. Imagine having to tow and steer these vehicles such long distances!

Chris Hebbron


I believe that Hull was responsible for the over-painting, as native buses and trolleybuses were also treated similarly. I cant say about window netting, as I’m not quite that old! Hull certainly did have some air-raids during the war, and lost 35% of the bus fleet in May, 1941. No trolleybuses were affected, however.

Keith Easton


The over painting was carried out by the Transport Department over a period of ten days in late May 1941. All trolleybuses were parked along main roads at night to prevent their loss if a garage was hit by bombs but the white could be seen from the air and the undertaking was asked to do it, Geoff O’Connell (whose father was an inspector) told me that he remembered seeing TB7 no 52 being all blue at the front and offside but with normal livery on the other!

Malcolm Wells


Hi Malcolm, can we can confirm that these trolleys were actually TB4 and not TB2? I have seen them quoted with both model types but the date would make TB4 more likely. I have a photocopy sheet from Geoff, which shows the layout of the original Black on white blinds, with routes 61, 61A, 62, 62A, 62B, 62C, 63, 63A, 64, 64A, 65 and 66. Of course the 65 and 66 were not operated as such, but were the 62B and 62C ever operated? The ‘A’ route numbers are shown as being blanked out along with 65 and 66. You mention the Anlaby Road route as being 99, but I have no record of this, was it actually used in service?

Keith Easton


Do not know if the following will help but the dates below are for when the TDs first appeared.

TD1 – 1927        TD2 – 1932        TD3 – 1933        TD4 – 1935 
TD5 – 1937        TD6 – 1938        TD7 – 1939

Spencer


The reference to service 99 was a typing error – it was 69.
Leylands 1 to 26 were designated TD4 in the original tender from Leyland Motors in July 1936 and this was quoted in the minutes but was subsequently altered to TB4.
The 62B and 62C were never operated but no reason for doing so has ever come to light although a difference in headways might have contributed – there were more trolleybuses per hour on Beverley Road than on Newland Avenue.

Malcolm Wells


I’m sure most people who have posted on this subject already know this but there are some really fantastic short videos on YouTube concerning Hull trolleys and motor buses from before WW2 to the present day. It seems Hull has been more fortunate than many places in having such a wonderful pictorial transport record!

Chris Barker


25/02/14 – 16:12

Having lived in Hull from 1946 to 1963, I can clarify the route number situation.
61 was Chantlands Avenue (up to Cottingham Road)
65 was the shortened version of 61 terminating about 200 yds from the start of Chantlands Avenue- peak only
62 was Princes Av/Newlands Av (to Cottingham Road)
66 was the shortened version of 62 terminating at Pearson’s Park.
63 was Beverley Road (up to Cottingham Road)
67 was the shortened version of 63 up to Pearson’s Park – peak only
All of the above originally ran on the pre-war Leyland Buses, but were replaced in 1950 by the forward control dual entrance and dual staircase Sunbeams – which were supposed to have counters on the stairs with the forward staircase for ascending and the mid-bus staircase for descending- this was not a success.
64 was Holderness Road
68 was the shortened version up to East Park – peak only.
These used the 1940 Leyland vehicles for the duration of the trolleybus system
69 Analby Road – almost to Boothferry Park
(There were 169 and 269 shortened but these did not come about until after the end of the trolleybus system)
70 Hessle Road – almost to City Limits
(a shortened version (170 or 270) ran but only after the end of the trolleybus system.
All 69’s and 70’s used 1948 vehicles which (from memory) were B.E.T. (which was a joint A.E.C./Leyland venture) for the duration of the trolleybus system.

Frank Burgess


26/02/14 – 07:52

The joint Leyland and AEC was actually BUT. They also supplied engines for early railway Diesel Multiple Units. The sight of Hull trolleys in Pontypridd must have confused any potential German Spies!!!!

Philip Carlton


26/02/14 – 12:13

Chris Hebbron is certainly right in an early comment that Pontypridd needed extra vehicles during the war. However the Portsmouth and Hull trolley-buses were probably not operated concurrently. The main caption above mentions the Hull quartet on loan to Pontypridd in 1941 to 1942. The Portsmouth quartet went to Wales in August 1942, so presumably were replacements for the Hull ones returning north. Pontypridd gained an extra six seats per vehicle. But they lost out on standardisation, as two Portsmouth vehicles were AEC 663T, and two were Sunbeam MS3s. Two had MCCW, and two EEC bodies, one on each make of chassis. Also two had EEC motors, but one regen the other augmented field, the other two having BTH motors, one regen, the other regulated field. Such was Portsmouth’s desire to experiment! None of them had traction batteries, and had been in storage at Portsmouth since c.1940 so that they wouldn’t block the streets in the event of power cuts due to bombings etc. Three of them stayed at Pontypridd until November 1945, the fourth returning in August 1946.

Michael Hampton


26/02/14 – 16:40

Can I provide the following route details at 1 January 1958:
61 Chanterlands Avenue North
62 Newland Avenue (Cottingham Road)
63 Endike Lane – much further north than Cottingham Road – there were no turning facilities at the eastern part of Pearson Park on Beverley Road
64 Ings Road
65 Goddard Avenue – short working of the 61 – originally the main service – was used at peaks and during the day in later years
66 Pearson Park – short working of the 62 – used only in days immediately preceding holidays such as Christmas
68 East Park – short working of the 68 – alternate trolleybuses turned here from 29 June 1952
69 Meadowbank Road – extended from the roundabout at the Boothferry Road junction on 30 March 1947
70 Dairycoates – well short (over a mile ) of the city boundary.
71 Boulevard – short working of the 69 – used for rubgy league specials on Saturdays (mainly)
The twenty Leyland TB7s (nos 47-66) were delivered in the Summer of 1939 – Nos 47/48/51/52 were licensed from 1 August 1939. By December 1960 only seven were left (48/54/55/61/63/64/66) and several Crossley TDD4s were sent to Holderness Road to maintain the 64/68 service. All seven were withdrawn on 28 January 1961 when service 70 was withdrawn.
KHCT never operated BUT trolleybuses – the 1948 vehicles were Sunbeam F4 with Roe H60R bodies (8 feet wide). All ten entered service on 1 June 1948 but were later split between the 69 and 70.
The dual door trolleybuses were Sunbeam MFsBs with Roe H54D bodies. No. 101 arrived in later 1952 whilst the further fifteen entered service from November 1954 to May 1955. they were intended for one-man operation using tokens and tickets – no cash and Mr Pulfrey, the GM, wanted the 63 to be the trial route but due to Union opposition they never ran in that form. No. 116 was fitted with an electronic counter on both stairs but it was not successful. No. 116 also had a Grant farebox fitted but never ran in service as such. They gained the nick name "Coronations" as no. 101 entered service in January 1953.
The service 67 was the renumbered 63A which ran to Chanterlands Avenue North via Beverley Road and Cottingham Road at times during the war and for a short time thereafter. The Original 63A was intended for short workings to Haworth Arms. KHCT wanted a roundabout here so that alternate vehicles on Beverley Road could turn here but nothing came of this partly due to the start of the war.
The 61/62 were the preserve of Leyland TB4s pre-war whilst the Crossleys ran the 63 – they were kept apart in Cottingham Road garage!
Nos 1 to 4 were recalled from Pontypridd to permit the Anlaby Road tram route to be converted to trolleybus operation.
Full details of the fleet list were posted on this site by Keith Easton some time ago and can be viewed at this link.

Malcolm Wells


There is is also a very in depth article that maybe of interest at the following link Bus, Trolleybus and Tram Routes of Kingston upon Hull Corporation

Peter


 

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Hull Corporation – Sunbeam W – GRH 356 – 80

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport - Sunbeam W Trolleybus - GRH 356- Black& White

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport - Sunbeam W Trolleybus - GRH 356- Colour

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1945
Sunbeam W
Roe H31/29R

In order to undertake the final tram replacement along Hessle Road, in 1945. The final trolleybus route commenced on 1st of July. To operate this route 18 trolleybus chassis were purchased from Sunbeam. The first 12 were bodied by Brush of Loughborough, but the final 6 were bodied by Leeds-based Charles Roe. Number 80 is one of this final batch, which entered service in November, 1945.
Originally the seating layout was H30/26R, but along with most of the earlier trolleybuses it was upseated to H31/29R configuration in 1948.
The black and white photo shows no 80 operation along Anlaby Road, near to the Boulevard, the latter being the terminus of route 71, which, incidentally, had the only trolleybus reverser on the whole system, located at Malm Street. 80 is operating the main 69 service, in the outbound direction. The blinds are of interest, as the front blind is the 1942 wartime version, but the rear blind is the original black on white type. It is carrying a healthy load of passengers despite being on a 5 minute headway.
The colour photo shows it returning to the city centre on Newland Avenue service 62. It is seen in King Edward Street nearing the terminus. Considering the austerity of the period when they were built, they are a very handsome vehicle.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

———

The front blind in the top photograph is not the wartime version – the wartime version was a large number only – the number and via only display was agreed in December 1945 and gradually introduced from 1947. The rear blind is not as originally made as the Anlaby Road service was to be numbered 65 (Hessle Road would have been 66) but the renumbering in February 1942 changed this to 99. The blind was changed simply by altering the number.

Malcolm Wells

———

Hi Malcolm, many thanks for your input clearing up details on trolleybuses, a lot of the information was mainly from memory, and it ain’t always what it used to be!

Keith Easton

———

The reference to service 99 in my previous comment was a typing error – it was 69.

Malcolm Wells

———

Hull`s first batch of trolleybuses were Leyland TB4s with composite Weymann bodies. Subsequent batches by Crossley and Leyland were bodied by East Lancs and Cravens, both well known for metal framed bodywork. If this is so, does anyone know why Hull changed policy here, only to revert to timber framing (Roe) post war?

John Whitaker

———

My initial reaction would be that Hull’s East Lancs and Cravens bodies were timber-framed. I don’t know in this specific instance, but it was generally preferred in trolleybuses as metal-framed trolleybuses had to have low voltage (instead of traction voltage) lighting and in those days that required a motor-generator set which was extra weight, expense and something else to maintain, so not preferred.
Huddersfield had many East Lancs-bodied trolleybuses but only ever one metal-framed one. The motor-generator set and the associated noise was the reason why (I learnt this from Roy Brook’s excellent book on that system.)

David Beilby

———

I`m pretty sure you are right Dave re the Hull Craven and East Lancs trolleybus bodies, although they must have been to special order to be timber framed.
Motor generator sets are not the only way of lighting a trolleybus with metal bodies though, Bradford, from 1935 dispensing with this item but still retaining English Electric and Weymann all-metal bodies. I can supply more detail on this if anyone is interested, but Bradford was a trolleybus pioneer in several ways at this time.

John Whitaker

———

The debate about use of timber &/or metal framed bodies for trolleybuses is both interesting and, for the most part, true. The premise, however, isn’t. It presupposes that the move to Roe composite from any other metal was retrograde. The fact is that Roe composite bodies right up to the end (1968) were far better quality than many metal framed bodies – and that includes Roe’s own (Park Royal designed) metal framed bodies which gradually replaced them.
Evidence also suggests that the quality of Craven bodies could be suspect and that rebodying of such vehicles was not unknown.

David Oldfield

———

Further to David Oldfield’s comment, Nottingham had a series of 45 Craven bodied AEC Regents supplied in 1938, and I understand they were always regarded as much inferior in build quality to the earlier (1936) Metro-Cammell equivalents. And the inferiority of the Craven bodied first generation DMUs for British Railways was legendary!

Stephen Ford

———

Bradford was indeed a pioneer with trolleybus development, as it worked with the English Electric Company to produce a new trolleybus control system called series dynamic and rheostatic braking (SD) in 1936. This SD control system became the standard adopted by the Ministry of War Transport for the Sunbeam W/Karrier W trolleybuses built from 1943 onwards. Most of the post war trolleybuses built had the SD system of control, which was the case with the London Transport BUT 9641T BUT Q1 class. These were significantly different to the London prewar fleet that all had regenerative braking control.

Richard Fieldhouse

———

No premise intended David!
Horses for courses and all that. I am one of the greatest Roe admirers, as were Bradford Corporation, with their BUTs 740-751 !

John Whitaker

———

03/02/12 – 06:26

Pontypridd Urban District Council Transport needed extra buses during World War II for the local town services (electrified) as the petrol buses were in great demand to transport workers to the then rapidly expanding Treforest Industrial Trading Estate, (war effort) near Pontypridd.
The Trolleybuses ran a regular route from Treforest village 2 miles south of Pontypridd (not to be confused with Tref Ind Est, 4 miles south of Pontypridd)through to Pontypridd and on to Cilfynydd (pronounced Kilvunith for non welsh speakers) 2 miles north of Pontypridd where the buses turned for the return journey.

Mike Ashcroft

———

05/02/12 – 06:44

The Hull Cravens bodies on Crossley TDD4 chassis were of composite construction in accordance with Hull Corporation Transport’s specification TC2 as were the East Lancashire bodied Leyland TB7s. The Cravens bodies received major overhauls in the early 1950s (no. 46 excepted which was withdrawn in December 1954). In addition, several received new or rebuilt platforms by 1959.
Hull’s Sunbeam F4s nos 91-100 had 8 feet wide Roe bodies similar to Bradford’s 740-751 but the interiors of the Hull vehicles were far superior to the Bradford bodies. I was surprised on the first visit to Bradford in 1961 (when 91 to 100 were still in service in Hull)at the difference.

Malcolm Wells


 

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Hull Corporation – Sunbeam MF2B – RKH 102/15 – 102/15

Hull Corporation RKH 102 Sunbeam MF2B Trolley Bus

Hull Corporation RKH 115 Sunbeam MF2B Trolley Bus
Photographs by ‘unknown’ if you took these photos please go to the copyright page.

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
Sunbeam MF2B
1954 (102) 1955 (115)
Roe H30/24D

The final batch of Kingston upon Hull Corporation trolleybuses, comprised a batch of 15 production and one prototype Sunbeam MF2B’s with Roe 54 seat highbridge bodywork. Due to the date of the prototype entering service in 1953, the whole batch were known as "Coronation" They were designed by the General Manager of KHCT, Mr G H Pulfrey, and the bodies were built to his design by Charles H Roe, of Crossgates, Leeds.
They were designed for one man operation, but in fact were never so used. The bodies were of 8′ width and featured front entrances, ahead of the front wheels and a central exit; internally they were fitted with two staircases, and a periscope was fitted to allow the driver to see how may seats were available on the upper deck, without leaving his seat. Another new feature in Hull was the use of automatic trolley retrievers, to assist with rewiring dislodged trolley poles.
It is believed that the 16 "Coronations" were always allocated to Cottingham Road Garage, working the Chanterlands Avenue and Beverley Road routes (61 and 63). Their working lives were comparatively short being only 9 to 11 years. Despite their short lives, none were sold for use elsewhere, but some Motors and electrical equipment were sold to Bradford, the remainder going for scrap. It is a shame that none of these fine vehicles were preserved.
The two photographs show number 102 (RKH 102), working route 61 on Chanterlands Avenue at the Goddard Avenue turning circle, this was the terminus of the 65 short working. It is on the outward journey. The second photograph shows sister vehicle 115 (RKH 115), In Ferensway, Hull city centre, passing the (then) Royal Station Hotel, whilst working a special service. The streamline livery of Hull Corporation, is shown to best effect on these vehicles.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

———

What superb vehicles these Hull trolleybuses were, and to a unique design too. I remember them so well from my RAF days at Patrington (1955/6) and of course they were in their prime then. What a tragedy that, if they had to be withdrawn early, they couldn’t have been sold as complete runners to Bradford. With five or six years remaining for the Bradford system they would have been a fine sight in the lovely blue and cream of the last trolleybus network in the Country – ah well, we can dream.

Chris Youhill

———

Ref the Bradford comment, lets play ‘what if’s’ for a moment!.
If we assume that going from a two door to front door only layout ( i.e. as per Atlantean or Fleetline) would gain 10 seats – 2 x doubles on each deck in place of the stairs + a double in place of the door that would take it up to a 64 seater. Extend the body in the rear overhang by one full bay would gain another row of seats on each deck which now gives us a 72 seat 30 foot bus. Sounds drastic?, perhaps – but not as drastic as building a complete new body which is what Bradford did only two years earlier on the ex Mexborough chassis and even then only finishing up with a vehicle with less seats at greater cost. Perhaps we could then have also seen a One Man Operated trolleybus as originally intended?.

By the way – is it me or does anyone else think that the Coronations bear a strong resemblance to the AEC Q type trolleybus?

Andrew

———

I talked, a month ago, about AEC cul-de-sacs – but often a design is years ahead of itself. Could be this is just such an example.

Sometimes a vehicle morphs into someone else’s.
Daimler Roadliner   became:
Dennis Falcon V     became:
Duple 425             became:
Dennis R series

The Bristol RE became:
Ward Dalesman GRX and Dennis Falcon H/HC

Did you know, though, that the last Sunbeam motor bus was a Sunbeam Regent – the trolleybus side was sold separately!!!

David Oldfield

———

The decision to abandon Hull’s trolleybus network was made in 1959, but although the trolleybuses were making a healthy profit, passenger numbers were on the decline, as more journeys were being made into the B zone, whilst the trolleybuses were only operating within the A zone. In 1934, the well known co-ordination agreement with East Yorkshire took effect and the tram routes in the B zone were abandoned and replaced by motor buses. Hull could have had a much larger trolleybus network, but for two reasons. The first being the co-ordination agreement, and secondly the cost of extending the overhead equipment. Had the trams not been curtailed, the trolleybuses would almost certainly have operated within the B zone also. This could have also seen EYMS trolleybuses, what a thought!

Keith Easton

———

A wonderful thought indeed Keith – but I imagine no through workings to Beverley as that would have been pushing the clearance miracle under The Bar just too far !!

Chris Youhill

———

Oh, I don’t know, Chris. You remember the principle of the conduit trams in London!

Stephen Ford

———

Indeed Stephen, I remember the London conduit system very well. On frequent childhood holidays in South London I spent many hours wonderment in watching the procedure for changing from overhead to conduit at the south end of Streatham High Road on the A23. Any such trolleybus scheme for the Beverley Bar would, I’m afraid, have been stamped on heavily at the planning stage in that very conservative ancient town.

Chris Youhill

———

With all the hoo-ha over satellite dishes in the Avenues, from the residents association, I very much doubt that trolleybuses would be allowed along Chanterlands Avenue these days; let alone Beverley! Seriously, though, trolleybuses working around Hessle, Anlaby, Willerby and Cottingham would have been serious contenders for, perhaps circular, services to and from Hull.

Keith Easton

———

As an aside, I notice that Hull was another (trolley) bus organisation which did not really consider visitors to the city in terms of blind displays. Enormous numbers and an almost begrudging display of the destination, and this was the ’50’s! Whilst it could be argued that pre-war London Transport intermediate blind displays were over the top, they did at least consider the native and visiting passenger. Smart vehicles, though, and nice to see a general manager ploughing his own furrow.

Chris Hebbron

———

Hello Chris, please see my comments on the AEC Regent III, HAT 471, for an explanation of Hull’s post-war blinds. Pre-war blinds in Hull were really quite informative, giving inner and outer terminals, with the main road(s) traversed, and the route number. For an example see the rear blind on Sunbeam W, number 80 (that will be posted 25/09). I must agree with post-war blinds though, but as a native Hullensian, we knew which route numbers went where, but it was not easy for visitors, but most Hull folk were friendly anyway.

Keith Easton

———

Interesting to read that these vehicles were intended for one-man-operation, given that this was not to be legal on double deckers for another 12/13 years; I would have thought that in 1953 O-M-O was fairly uncommon even on single deckers!

Dave Towers

———

The Coronations were also used on service 62 – I used service 62 every day to go to school. No. 101 did a six week stint on every route when it first entered service although the Hessle Road stay was cut short because it couldn’t cope with the very heavy loads.
The photo of 115 shows in Paragon Square on the DOLRS tour which covered every route and garage. No. 115 was newly repainted. There are other photos which show it in Holderness Road garage and at North Bridge.

Malcolm Wells

———

26/04/12 – 06:17

Keith, I think that RKH 102 is pictured at the end of Chanterlands Avenue, entering the Bricknell Avenue roundabout, just before it reaches Goddard Avenue. In the mid-1950s the roundabout was quite new, prior to which the trolleybuses used to sweep majestically round the bend into Chants North! The site of the pre-fabs in the background is now occupied by sheltered homes and the bus shelter at far right is now the Rainhill Road stop (opposite Murrayfield Road).

Malcolm Burke


 

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