Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd
1960
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Roe H44/31F
The ugly lines of the Park Royal inspired Roe bodies on the early Atlantean chassis are barely
disguised by the Devon General livery in this photo taken in Teignmouth on a sunny day in July 1973. I
suppose we should be thankful that it hasn’t yet succumbed to the insipid NBC poppy red colour scheme.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
04/01/16 - 06:27
I’ve seen plenty of examples of poorly located bus stops, but this one looks
to be an extremely challenging stop to catch a bus from!
petras409
04/01/16 - 06:28
Copyright Unknown
Ian, I think a lot of the problem with the appearance of DL901 arises from the
over-zealous use of front facing advertising literature coupled with the opening front lights which
really squash up the windows. Sheffield had half a dozen similar Roe-bodied Atlanteans which I
personally find quite pleasing to the eye bearing in mind it was early days for mass produced rear
engine machines.
John Darwent
04/01/16 - 09:44
I think the stop in question was only for top-loaders, ie, those of "O
(seating) (doorway)" layout.
Pete Davies
04/01/16 - 09:45
petras409 makes a fair point about the bus stop, if it is for the road on
which 901 is travelling, but I think it could be positioned for buses using the road where the
people (possibly aging bus spotters marking off numbers in their Ian Allan fleet book) are sitting.
Perhaps a member of this site knows the location in question, and if buses traverted/traverse that
section of road.
In today’s more disability conscious world I doubt if that bench would be
allowed to be placed in the middle of the footpath.
Stephen Howarth
04/01/16 - 16:43
As suggested, the surroundings are more puzzling than the bus! As John D says,
the design of early rear engined decker bodies was very much based on function, as Roe designs
generally always were. Peaks, glass fibre mouldings, one piece windscreens and fairings came later.
This bus has its traits exaggerated by- possibly- the camera angle and the white roof, plus as
noted, the window vents. The interesting bit is the bus stop sign and the bench! Possibly the road
was not wide enough for two buses of this width to pass (and had only one pavement?) and perhaps
there was a one way system for them with a bus stop opposite the seat… but did people sit with
their backs to the road? What was the view that demanded a seat to see it, over a busy, noisy main
road? Odd.
Joe
04/01/16 - 16:44
The location is on the outskirts of Teignmouth, and the Atlantean is just
descending the "ramp" to Shaldon Bridge, where it would cross the Teign, before heading
off along the clifftop run to Maidencombe, St Marychurch and Torquay (present day route 11). The
stop certainly relates to the road on the left, which is the main road to Newton Abbot - present day
route 2 from Exeter via Exminster, Dawlish, Teignmouth - a journey that takes an hour and
three-quarters, every 20 minutes throughout the day.
Stephen Ford
04/01/16 - 16:45
I think that the bus is taking the approach to the T’mouth to Shaldon Bridge
and the road on the left is the one to Newton Abbott.
It is feasible that there was at that
time a stop on both roads explaining the white sign to the left of the pole but the orange rectangle
to the right of the pole doesn’t look like a bus stop sign.
The seat is, as you say, in the
middle of the pavement but is facing that way because that is the view across the estuary.
John Lomas
05/01/16 - 06:03
The bus 901 is on the road to Shaldon via a road bridge and en route to
Torquay via the coast road. The bus spotters or tourist are looking out over the River Teign from
beside the bus stop for the number 2 to Newton Abbot which goes along beside the River, on the top
road. A great shot of 901 in our traditional colours.
Iain
05/01/16 - 06:04
Thank you, Stephen and John, for informing us about the location. Has the stop
been declared busy enough or exposed enough to warrant a shelter? One with a normal-sized roof must
surely try attaching itself to any "unwary" vehicles coming the other way, up the hill. As
my shelter supplier used to say, "It needs a fence panel with an ironing board as a
roof."
Pete Davies
05/01/16 - 06:05
I always thought that Devon General’s livery was superb. The Metro-Cammell
bodied Atlanteans were far more attractive than these, especially when viewed from the rear.
Don McKeown
05/01/16 - 15:46
Here’s the approximate location on Streetview : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/
Stephen Ford
05/01/16 - 17:07
As seen in Stephen’s Google link, the site of the old bus stop is shown by the
concrete post still standing near the seat just a few yards down from the present stop.
John Darwent
06/01/16 - 05:43
Although not too clear, there is also a bench in the same place as before, but
facing the road this time, with not so impressive a view as before!
Chris Hebbron
06/01/16 - 05:44
Nice shot, even to the point of the Austin A40 (seen heading away from camera)
being in matching colours to the bus. An extraordinary coincidence!
Grahame Arnold
06/01/16 - 16:38
The problem with this body design is that the upper deck windows are
relatively shallow, and are also set high relative to the general level of the roof (i.e. the roof
is also shallow). This ruins the proportions of the bus as a whole, particularly in the case of full
height vehicles, and also has the additional disadvantage that the upper deck windows are too high
set for small children to see out. I don’t think the opening front windows really make a difference,
but the layout of the colours of the DG livery is not really flattering in this case.
The
upper deck structure appears to be the same as those infamous Leyland Titans that Southampton CT
purchased in the early 1960s, and it also looks the same as that on the early Weymann/MCW lowheight
Atlanteans. The lower vehicles looked more acceptable, because the proportions were better balanced,
with equal depth windows on the lower deck.
There may be good practical and functional reasons
for having shallower windows on the upper deck, but the outward appearance can be compromised. The
MCW Orion suffered in this respect, but at least the upper deck windows were set lower, and the
deeper roof improved the overall look, compared to these PRV/Roe vehicles.
Nigel Frampton
07/01/16 - 06:15
Nigel, I have often wondered whether the shallower windows on the upper deck
of such vehicles was an attempt by the bodybuilder(s) to standardise the upper deck structure for
both lowbridge and highbridge models. Upper deck framing, window glasses, window rubbers, emergency
exits and front and rear domes would then be identical regardless of overall height. Also, given
that front and rear domes were increasingly being fabricated from GRP around that time, perhaps
utilising only one shape for the front and one for the back would have made production easier,
and/or reduced costs. The influence of the BET Group on bus design should not be underestimated
either, and may well have played a part in some designs having a similar ‘look’, despite being
from different bodybuilders. These are just thoughts mind.
Brendan Smith
07/01/16 - 06:18
John D - that’s a superb shot of Sheffield 945, looks as though it was brand
new when photographed. Thanks for posting. Nigel, I’d not related the shallower roof of the Roe vs
the MCW versions of the bodies on early Atlanteans - that makes the difference.
Ian Wild
08/01/16 - 06:42
I don’t have any records on Devon General’s early Roe bodied Atlanteans, but a
shufti on Ebay and Flickr have thrown up interesting anomalies. Amongst the photos of the batch
which are subject of this thread, are those of 898 898 DTT, 905 DTT and 901 901 DTT which are shown
with the opening front windows on the upper deck and the destination indicator in a mid position
between decks. Also shown are pictures of 908 908 DTT and 901 901 DTT (again) but without opening
front windows and with the destination indicator moved to a much lower position. The latter two
pictures show the buses with the awful NBC red. So, the question is, was there a partial rebuilding
programme of this batch?
John Darwent
08/01/16 - 06:44
Brendan, I believe that you are correct. I have certainly seen the suggestion
that the PRV/Roe bodies with shallow upper deck windows came about as a result of BET pressure on
costs repeated elsewhere. Standardisation obviously brings benefits, and it certainly wasn’t
invented by the NBC! The Tilling/BTC/THC group managed it as well, but with a lot more style than
these PRV upper decks.
I presume, and I guess that you can confirm this, that there will be
more common parts than just the windows themselves, but presumably some elements of the framework
under the skin as well? As far as I can tell, the lengths of the windows on an ECW bodied F-series
Lodekka, a VRT and an RELL, were the same, but the depths were different. I suppose, even if it was
only the glass, there would still be scope for standardisation of window sliders and hoppers, but I
can imagine the operators would have been looking for more.
The kings of window size
standardisation seem to have been Ulsterbus. The X type body, fitted to Bristol RELL and Leyland
Leopard chassis made extensive use of a standard plain glass, but the last side window was a
different shape. The successor body (N type) went even further, using only that standard size,
including the window in the rear panel. At around the same time, Ulsterbus were buying several
secondhand Bristol REs, and they generally stuck to ECW bodies to ensure standardisation. I recall a
comment from the management of the company, during a visit there around 1985, saying that they had
also bought one (or possibly more) Bristol RESL-8s from Ribble, and they were most disappointed to
find that the windows were a different length!
Nigel Frampton
08/01/16 - 10:49
John D,
The repositioning of the destination boxes on Devon General
Atlanteans was the result of One Manning during the 1970s. They had all been delivered with
conductor operation in mind, so the destination displays could be changed upstairs, in front of the
front seats. Originally, they were nice and clear, with two lines of destination (ultimate and via
points), as shown in the picture above.
But, as part of the conversion to OMO, the blind boxes
were masked down to a single ultimate display and lowered, so that they could be wound from the
diver’s seat.
This gave the front view a very unbalanced aspect and particularly disfigured
the lovely Sea Dog convertible Atlanteans, in their cream and maroon reversed livery.
This OMO
conversion didn’t affect the upper deck windows, as most of the Atlanteans continued to have opening
front windows after the conversion. The pictures you have seen with plain glass may be the result of
upper deck repairs following damage.
Western National also bought a large batch of MCW
Atlanteans from Maidstone & District and similarly ‘uglyfied’ them too, with lower blind
boxes.
Petras409
08/01/16 - 16:59
Petras409. Many thanks for the interesting explanation regarding the changed
appearance of some of the batch.
John Darwent
