Here is a strange one for you, (VK 2399) is a pre war Newcastle Corporation AEC complete with advert for our local rag, so what�s so strange about that when it comes from me? Take a look at that bus stop, isn't that a London Transport compulsory stop, so how did a Newcastle bus end up on service in London? War time vehicle shortages perhaps?
Ronnie Hoye
07/10/12 - 14:39
Nice one Ronnie! Wartime loans were very common. This looks like one of the 1930
Newcastle Regents with English Electric body.
See David Beilby�s gallery, where I think there is one of the same batch
when new.
John Whitaker
07/10/12 - 18:07
Definitely a wartime loan, look at the shielded headlights. The question is when. There are no blackout or shrapnel precautions on the windows so this may be a late war loan around the time of the September 1944 "dim out".
Phil Blinkhorn
08/10/12 - 08:17
I've seen a lot of photos of provincial buses lent to London Transport to cover losses in the Blitz and none of them ever had blast netting on the windows. Conversely, photos of ex-LT buses in the provinces during the war also didn't have such netting. It would seem that blast netting was far from universal throughout the UK. Incidentally, LT affixed little gratitude plates between the downstairs front windows on the bulkhead which said, "LONDON 1940-1941"
Chris Hebbron
08/10/12 - 08:17
London borrowed a lot of provincial buses during the blitz, but there is some
question as to whether they were needed or were loaned just a morale-boosting
exercise, as London was not really short of buses at that stage.
Ken Glazier's book on "London Buses and the Second World War"
makes some reference to the loans, but without specific details as it
concentrates on London's own fleet.
It would seem that none of the hired buses received the anti-blast
netting on the windows, so the absence of it doesn't help to date the
photograph. I think most of the returned buses went back quite quickly, once
the blitz ended.
David Beilby
08/10/12 - 08:27
A superb picture of an elegant vehicle. The London loan theory is borne out conclusively by the presence of the depot and running number stencils on the waistband behind the cab door.
Chris Youhill
08/10/12 - 08:35
As John points out, wartime loans and swaps were common, and it worked both ways. After having lent two Dennis Lancets to London Transprot in late 1939, (used, I believe on London Country services), York-West Yorkshire found themselves in 1942 swapping their Bristol K5Gs for 8 London Transport ST Regents of 1929 vintage that were themselves on loan to West Yorkshire Road Car.
Roy Burke
08/10/12 - 11:55
Whatever the date of the picture, I wonder about the blackout and shrapnel
precautions on loaned vehicles.
I would hypothesise that this, like many pictures of loaned buses, were
posed pretty much as soon as the vehicle arrived and used to boost morale on
the basis of "the whole country is pulling together".
As LT blacked out the windows of its vehicles and applied anti shrapnel
nets, why wouldn't it do the same for loaned vehicles? Not doing so would mean
that loaned vehicles could not be used in the hours of darkness and the lack
of netting would indicate an element of Russian roulette for passengers.
In fact it did treat loaned vehicles in the same way as its own. See
this link.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/10/12 - 07:51
Roy mentions W. Yorkshire lending two Dennis Lancets to LPTB in 1939 which served in the Country Area. I wonder if this was one of them:
Fortunately, I can fill in details re Phils photo. This Manchester Corporation
Leyland, No. 3235 (VR 5755), took part in the 1946 Victory Parade in London,
along with one from Halifax Corporation and two pre-war RT's. The very obvious
anti-blast (not anti-shrapnel)netting on the windows of all of them was put on
especially for the parade and applied to the outside, either to accentuate it
or make it easier to remove afterwards.
As I said earlier, I've never seen any lent buses with anti-blast
netting. Conversely, they all bore white painted corners, albeit with
individual ideas!
I should add that anti-blast netting with LPTB was a somewhat haphazard affair. Front and opening side windows were, I believe, made of toughened glass and were never treated. LT's and ST's had so many side windows (especially upstairs) it hardly seemed worth the effort! I've seen photos of Central Area buses, in 1942, still totally untreated! Country Services were not so keenly treated, even though Kent (Biggin Hill et al) was in right the firing line! The diamond clear panel was not the first version which had a small square one could barely see out of. Lowbridge bus passengers had a particular problem of visibility. I can't imagine anyone getting off at their correct stop without either counting the stops to their right one, or the conductor/ress calling out the stop, the most likely scenario. Still, where there's a will..... ! As an aside, we had a straight dual-carriageway near where I lived. It was nicknamed 'Machine-Gun Alley' and, young though I was, I recall seeing buses with bullet holes in them. My father said that they only allowed passengers downstairs on those routes. Keep Calm and Carry On!
Chris Hebbron
09/10/12 - 07:54
The theory about provincial buses in wartime London as part of an 'were all in it together' moral boosting exercise may well be right. I've had a look at the suggested links, and it seems to me the pictures of these vehicles being used on service have one thing in common, no trolleybus wires! I'm open to correction, but as far as I know trolleybuses didn't run within The Square Mile of the City, most of Westminster or the West End, so that would suggest these loan vehicles were in the main used in areas that even in wartime attracted tourists, don't forget, a lot of servicemen and women, were stationed near the Capitol. From 1942 onwards this number included a lot Americans, so a couple of day leave in London would be an obvious attraction.
Ronnie Hoye
09/10/12 - 07:55
Once again the PSVC comes to our rescue as their publication LT14, published a few
years ago, lists all the vehicles hired by London Transport, and confirms VK
2399 as being on loan from 23rd October 1940 until 20th March 1941, based at
Elmers End.
The question of safety netting on windows is interesting. There are
eight photographs of wartime hires in the book, and only one of the vehicles
depicted appears to be fitted with safety netting, and that on the upper deck
only.
Michael Wadman
09/10/12 - 11:03
Chris H - I'm sure you're right about the West Yorkshire Dennis Lancet - the two letter registration seems to be "YG" which would confirm it.
Chris Youhill
09/10/12 - 11:04
Yes, Chris, you're right. Your picture is of one of the Lancets lent to London by
York, but you already knew that from the fleet number - Y845. (On checking, I
find my dates were wrong, however. The vehicle went to London from 27.10.40 to
14.7.41).
There has been so much written about vehicles going to London from the
provinces to help with shortages that it's making me wonder how and why LPTB
vehicles were lent to West Yorkshire instead of simply being kept in London.
Explanation, anyone?
Roy Burke
09/10/12 - 11:06
The caption to Phils photo says:
"Three-quarter front nearside view of Manchester Corporation
Leyland bus, fleet no 3235, reg no VR 5755, which took part in the 1946
Victory Parade. The protective netting on the windows was added after the
vehicle was transferred to London in 1940/41; by then the worst of the Blitz
was over!
The above implies that the netting was added during its loan, NOT for
the parade for which the bus was sent back to London.
From your and other comments and some digging I've done, it is evident
the application of blackout and netting was haphazard within the LT fleet, let
alone on borrowed vehicles.
A Non
09/10/12 - 17:53
Sadly, Mr Non, some of the captions to the LT Museum can't be relied upon: I've had
to get them to correct several from personal knowledge. I've seen photos of
Manchester Corp'n buses in London without netting. Not conclusive, I know.
Incidentally, Manchester supplied more buses than any other operator.
Several valid reasons have appeared above for LPTB's need for buses, but
I do know that, for safety reasons (storage of petrol in garages, perhaps)
that most of its petrol-engined vehicles were taken off the road for the
duration, many parked in its Country Area garages. Fortunately, its 1935-40
Works Programme involved fitting diesel engines to its more modern fleet. Its
non-converted ex-Tilling ST's, on the cusp of being withdrawn in 1939, were
first choice for farming out to the provinces, the last not returning until
1947, most usually going straight for scrapping!
Chris Hebbron
10/10/12 - 09:26
I am more interested in the bus, as it is a rare picture of an English Electric
design before the adoption of the ubiquitous "standard" V front 6
bay style, introduced in 1932.
But then, that's just me, as anything marked "English
Electric" just gets me going!
I am a bit Pavlovian in that respect!
John Whitaker
10/10/12 - 12:03
I've done a good bit of reading round in the last day or two regarding vehicle
loans in the light of some of the comments on this thread.
The situation is complex. Partly clouded by wartime secrecy which hasn't
always been thoroughly researched and made more difficult by, except in few
circumstances, lack of other than official photos - which were subject to
censorship and often presented the best possible view, i.e without depicting
measures which would have shown how vehicles were blacked out/protected and,
of course, we are now over 70 years since the whole circus started.
Immediately before the outbreak of war most operators had become
convinced that diesel power was the future and were in the process of either
converting vehicles or were following a policy of gradual replacement. Average
fuel consumption of diesel was roughly 40% of that of petrol powered vehicles,
type for type.
In September 1939 all operators received a fuel allocation being around
50% of their 1938 usage. This led to many route frequencies being reduced or
abandoned, some for the duration, others periodically. New routes and
timetables were needed to serve war factories, airfields and army bases.
Wherever possible, operators withdrew petrol powered vehicles as soon as
they could and renegotiated their fuel allocations to reflect the fuel mix.
Where vehicles were destroyed by enemy action, operators sought to
borrow vehicles (London and Coventry being examples) and many operators needed
to enhance their fleets to cope with new wartime traffic against a background
of having time expired vehicles that needed replacing and few new vehicles
being made available, the withdrawal of still reasonable petrol engined
vehicles and the loss of vehicles to early War Department requisitions which
left them short later in the war when unforeseen demands were placed on them
by new traffic patterns - thus some seemingly odd vehicle transfers from
metropolitan areas to less populated centres.
At the end of the war many of the requisitioned vehicles were returned
in a very poor state. Some operators lost loaned vehicles to enemy action but
most vehicles found their way home in a relatively reasonable state given the
problems of wartime.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/10/12 - 12:13
John - you would have been all agog then in 1967, when I was in Arnhem and went to visit the War cemetery. This involved a journey by single deck trolleybus on route 1 to Oosterbeek. It was a fine vehicle and I was amazed to see on the tasteful polished woodwork the familiar emblem "Bodywork by English Electric Limited." Ten minutes later as I walked slightly uphill through the car park there was, incredibly, only one vehicle present - a Triumph Herald registered in my home city of Leeds.
Chris Youhill
11/10/12 - 11:27
Are you sure, Chris, that there was no BKW registered Austin 10 in Arnhem that day
too!!
EEC just has to be my all-time favourite builder, even before
ECOC/ECW.....must be my Bradford roots, and the 597-632 "Regen"
trolleybuses in particular.
Bradford`s fleet was almost a mirror catalogue of the Preston product
from 1928 to 1939, and I am therefore "ower t`moon" when pictures of
the missing items in that evolutionary sequence appear!
John Whitaker
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