Copyright Ray Soper
Maidstone & District
1953
Guy Arab IV
Weymann H32/26R
Seeing the pictures of Guy Arabs submitted by Andrew Charles and Chris Youhill reminded me of my own
experience of these wonderful vehicles. This picture of Maidstone & District Guy Arab IV, (originally
Chatham & District), is another fine example. It has much nostalgic value for me personally, because
either it or its next door stable mate, DH 455 – I’m afraid at this interval of time, I can’t remember
which – was the first double-decker I ever drove.
Opinions about the attractiveness of bodywork
are very personal, but I always thought the Weymann bodies on these vehicles were restrained and
elegant. They were comfortable, and the buses rode well.
Having been brought up in York, I had
virtually no familiarity with Guys before I went to M&D, but I rapidly developed a great deal of
admiration for them. To get the best out of them, they required a small modicum of driving skill, (Chris
Youhill will know exactly what I mean by this), but driven properly they were very rewarding and had
very adequate performance. I never drove any of M&D’s Bristols, apart from Chatham Depot’s Gardner
5LW-engined breakdown vehicle, and had limited experience of their AEC Regents, but for me, the Guys
were the best front-engined vehicles they had. Some of M&D’s Leyland PD2s did higher mileages over their
lifetimes, but those vehicles were generally operated on rural routes with relatively generous running
times, whereas the Guys lived an unremitting hard life.
M&D had about 24 of them, all with Gardner
6LW engines, and all based at Chatham Depot, where they operated the Company’s most demanding urban
routes – the heaviest traffic, the hilliest terrain and quite sharp running times. In that role they
were both economical and almost unbelievably reliable. Apart from routine maintenance, they just never
seemed to develop problems. My involvement in operations at that time extended to gaining a management
view, and I came to regard a Guy Arab with a 6LW engine as being about the best you could get for urban
services.
Chatham also operated Leyland Atlanteans, introduced to replace the Bristol K5G’s, but
they gave the Depot Engineer far more headaches than the Guys. Of course, Atlanteans had the advantage
of a larger passenger capacity, but the price paid for that was substantially higher fuel, oil and
maintenance costs – occasionally frighteningly so – and more engineering overheads to keep the fleet
operational. In the longer term, of course, rear-engined vehicles were the future, and M&D were leaders
in introducing them, but back in the 1960’s, when few operators visualised one-man operated
double-deckers, their advantage was not immediately obvious.
I have long felt that Guys have been
undervalued by some enthusiasts, but I’m not sure why. Maybe it is just relative unfamiliarity with
them, compared with Leyland and AEC, or the fact that many people’s first experience of them was of
buses fitted with WWII bodies and Gardner 5LW engines. Those engines sounded agricultural, and were
sometimes thought under-powered in hilly districts, but a 6LW engine transformed performance without a
significant rise in fuel consumption. As far as I know, although many M&D vehicles have been preserved,
no Guy is amongst them, (if anyone knows otherwise, please do write a comment), which is a very great
pity.
Finally, the AEC Reliance behind DH 456 also brings fond memories to me. One of this batch
was the very first bus I drove. I had a short lesson in one the day before I went out in the Guy Arab, I
think primarily to satisfy the instructor that I could actually handle a large vehicle.
My sincere
thanks, also, to Ray Soper for his permission to use his photo.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roy Burke
13/02/11 - 16:50
My experience of Guy Arabs was minimal living in Leeds only West Riding having
any when I began to take an interest in matters bus and these always played second fiddle to the ill
fated Wulfrunians West Ridings lowbridge Arabs were absolute work horses and would probably be still
running if asked to! They would prove to be the NBCs last lowbridge buses.
Later I lived in
LUT territory and found their Northern Counties bodied Arabs to be just about the last word in what
was then conventional bus smooth riding with well built well proportioned bodywork and a virtually
flat entrance.
The former Halifax manager Geoff Hilditch wrote a series of articles in the
late sixties - early seventies on various chassis he called the Arab solid reliability and really I
don’t think that is far of the mark!
Chris Hough
13/02/11 - 18:06
The first bus I ever drove was a Guy Arab with Northern Counties Bodywork and
the 5cyl Gardner engine I also was a conductor on these vehicles and I would never describe them
giving a smooth ride, harsh yes. They were reliable and you could also drive them with the cab door
open in the warm weather and this was the best feature for me, oh and they had nice steering. Can’t
compare a front engine bus with a rear engine bus though, especially when rear engine buses were a
new idea.
Michael Crofts
13/02/11 - 18:06
I have to say that it looks very odd, to my eyes, to see a Orion body sporting
a Guy radiator, but it’s not unattractive. It’s also the first Orion I noticed with sliding windows
rather than wind-down ones.
Thank you, Roy, for giving us your experiences of driving them -
glad they were positive. Guy’s demise was a sad event - it was a pity that shortage of money meant
that the Wulfrunian into service under-developed, there hastening its end.
Chris Hebbron
15/02/11 - 07:08
LUT’s forward-entrance Arabs were Arab Vs, which explains the smooth ride. The
suspension and semi-low chassis frame were the main improvements over the previous model. Add the
optional semi-automatic transmission and you got what I would imagine to be a perfect bus, but
unfortunately so few of those were built for the British market that I never had the pleasure.
Peter Williamson
05/04/11 - 05:45
The M&D bus appears to be a Weymann rather than a Metro Cammell body, re the
curved lower edge to the front bulkhead window.
The exposed rad Guy with Orion body wasn’t all
that rare after all, Northern General had many (All 5LW’s?) some of which were diverted to PMT prior
to delivery, and Exeter Corporation had a 6LW engined batch too.
I experienced the latter and
always thought them amongst the nicest looking Orions I’d encountered. Those with Leyland’s BMMO tin
fronts and narrow front domes with monstrously thick corner pillars were an assault on the senses.
As if these weren’t bad enough, Luton and Blackpool managed to make them even more hideous in
lowbridge and full front guise.
Keith Jackson
04/08/11 - 21:39
I would put forward the Park Royal RT-style bodies on East Kent’s FFN-series
Arabs as the best-looking on this chassis - as with the RT itself, it’s a style that never seemed to
date, and they were excellent buses to work in.
Lew Finnis
29/01/12 - 16:36
At Northern’s Percy Main depot, we had two batches of very similar Orion Guy
Arabs, ’12 in all if memory serves’ the first batch were slightly different in that they had
ventilator cowls on the side of the roof rather than above the front upper windows. I don’t know if
it was an effort to save weight, or money, or more likely both, but they were positively spartan
inside, the upper decks were only single skinned with the frame exposed, as a result they had more
rattles than Mothercare, the much later Orion PD3’s were a far better finish, they were all double
skinned and padded between layers and were much quieter as a result, but it would be unfair to blame
the body builders for the short comings of the Guy’s, as all bodies are ‘or rather were’ built
to order and you get what you pay for. As with all Northern groups Arabs, they had the almost
indestructible Gardner 5LW, and they were an entirely different vehicle to drive than a PD,
‘count very slowly to 4 pausing in neutral to change up, and loads of revs to change
down’
Ronnie Hoye
30/01/12 - 07:46
Experience with Orions in Manchester was similar to Ronnie’s. The whole idea
of the Orion was to save weight, but they overdid it in the early stages. Metro-Cammell were
Manchester’s preferred body builder, but after the first Orions the Corporation moved on to
Burlingham while MCW sorted themselves out. The later ones were much better finished, and
medium-weight rather than light.
Peter Williamson
30/01/12 - 11:00
Ronnie. I love "more rattles than Mothercare" - you ought to
copyright it.
Sheffield, likewise, had the same problem. After over a hundred interim
Weymann classics (ie like the Rochdale Regent Vs rather then the "true" post-war classics)
they bought around a hundred early Weymann Orion bodies. As described above, they were horrendous
and built to the barest standard with no panelling and exposed frame. Subsequent Weymann Regent Vs,
like the Manchester Titans and Daimlers, were finished to a proper, acceptable standard - they were
very nice vehicles! [I seem to recollect that the Sheffield back-loader Bridgemasters were similarly
spartan - certainly around the window pans.]
David Oldfield
30/01/12 - 16:18
Interesting comments about the MCW/Weymann Orion bodies. My memory is that all
the M&D Arab IVs had Weymann bodies, although Ian Allen lists them as MCW. (Hasn’t someone explained
elsewhere on this site that the decision on the body builder depended on the volume of the order?).
The choice by different operators of a 5LW or a 6LW is interesting, too. M&D chose the latter
to replace their 5LW-engined Bristols at Chatham, (their other Bristols had AEC engines). The Depot
Engineer at Chatham had no doubt that the 6LW was the progressive choice, not only because it really
transformed the vehicles’ performance, (which from a traffic management viewpoint was extremely
important), but also because in service the saving in fuel consumption of the five-cylindered engine
was hardly significant. I have never seen comparisons, but I’m not surprised at that view.
Ronnie’s account of changing gear with a 5LW amused me - not very different, in my experience,
from doing so with a 6LW, although the noise in the cab of M&D’s 5LW-engined Bristol breakdown
vehicle was so loud that you could never tell from listening alone whether you’d managed a clean
change from 3rd to 2nd.
Some of the M&D Guys did, however, have one truly aggravating feature:
the exhaust brake. On most of them it didn’t work, but whether from failure or deliberate
disconnection I couldn’t say. I do remember driving DH465 when it had just been overhauled for
recertification and getting a throbbing headache from the intolerable noise in the cab caused by the
exhaust brake. Does anyone else have any recollection of this contraption?
Finally, the
comparative sound of the 2 Gardner engines would make a great entry to the new Old Bus Sounds page.
Surely someone more technically competent than I am will post one?
Roy Burke
30/01/12 - 16:20
My contact with Midland Red was fleeting, but I seem to remember they had some
pretty spartan double deckers- such design always reminiscent of a vandal-proof public toilet- with
an exposed glassfibre front roof dome with the rough side towards us- is my memory playing
tricks?
Joe
31/01/12 - 07:52
There were two deciding factors about orders for MCW - which was originally
the marketing company and NOT a manufacturer.
One was traditional customers went in one
direction or another. Sheffield always went to Weymann, Manchester to Met-Camm. M & D were a Weymann
customer. However, as Roy so rightly says, Met-Cam (MCCW) were considerably bigger than Weymann and
tended to be allocated the large orders - unless local preference had been voiced. In that way, when
the Atlantean came on stream, it was decided that the more popular Highbridge would be made by
Met-Cam and Weymann would make the lower volume semi-lowbridge model. Sheffield, a Weymann customer,
took most of its early Atlanteans from Met-Cam but had at least two batches from Weymann - despite
all being full height.
All Atlanteans and Fleetlines had the better specified bodies and did
not suffer the indignity of the lightweight Orion effect.
[Weymann also did the other low
volume work - coach bodies - until the two firms did indeed merge as the coachbuilder MCW in
1966.]
David Oldfield
31/01/12 - 07:54
There is possible confusion here between MCW (Metro-Cammell Weymann) and MCCW
(Metro-Cammell Carriage and Wagon). MCCW was the body builder, whereas MCW (until 1966) was a design
and sales company jointly owned by MCCW and Weymann. Therefore Ian Allan’s habit of describing
Weymann-built bodies as MCW wasn’t actually wrong, but just imprecise.
Peter Williamson
31/01/12 - 09:29
…..and of course MCW muddied the waters by putting their name on body
builders plates rather than the individual builders themselves.
As a post script, there was a
way to identify a Met-Camm Orion from a Weymann Orion.
i) The window construction on the cab
door was different (separate on MCCW and as a unit on Weymann).
ii) The saloon front windows
were an exact (if radiused) rectangle on MCCW whereas on the Weymanns the bottom of the window
curved down towards the outside - an echo of the classic Weymann predecessors but with a straight
top rather than that also curving down.
As ever, this was also muddied towards the end when
the proud and honourable tradition of Weymann was dogged by industrial problems which caused its
eventual demise. The effect was that quite often, between 1963 and the end in 1966, orders were
swapped from Addlestone to Birmingham - frequently having been built as a frame before
transfer.
David Oldfield
02/02/12 - 07:00
I didn’t know about the cab door. I knew about the bulkhead window, but have
recently discovered that it wasn’t as reliable as I thought - especially on lowbridge versions.
What does seem to be reliable is the join of the top of the nearside cab window to the canopy
- a straightforward right angle on Weymann but with an angled insert on MCCW. But beware post-1966
bodies. I’ve seen one that looked like a Weymann, only to discover that it was built by Cammell
Laird!
Peter Williamson
18/02/12 - 07:17
Luckily one of the West Riding Low Bridge Roe bodied Arabs survives and is
currently under restoration. Chris is right that the Arab could still be called on - after 30 years
dry stored it started first time and drove out of the shed in November 2011. Hopefully it will be
running at Dewsbury Bus Museum open days within the next 12 months
Mark B
18/02/12 - 09:30
Industrial unrest/strikes at Addlestone are a common theme, but what was the
source of the unrest. Was mention of closure a cause or effect of eventual closure, or was it
something else? (David Oldfield 31/01/12 - 09:29 posting above)
Chris Hebbron
18/02/12 - 09:35
That is very good and welcome news Marky B. The West Riding lowbridge Arabs
were fascinating vehicles indeed and full of real character, and the traditional livery suited them
perfectly. Many years ago I travelled on one on a busy Friday evening, having with me a very early
portable tape recorder. The bus was more than full, overloaded slightly with Bingo hopefuls, and as
we ascended the steep hill from Great Preston into Kippax Cross Hills even that sturdy little
machine was struggling in second gear - naturally I’ve no idea who the driver was but he certainly
deserved a medal for the finest completely skilled and imperceptible change down into first gear
that I think I’ve ever enjoyed - a wonderful experience which ZF, Voith and the present day lot
couldn’t know anything about.
I was under the impression that none of these little gems had
survived, and I can’t wait to see and hear this one in action - great news !!
Chris Youhill
10/09/12 - 07:25
I’ve only just caught up with this site, to my shame, but I was delighted to
come across Roy Burke’s contributions about the Chatham & District Guy Arabs, and the operation
itself.
Members of the Friends of Chatham Traction (of which I’m Chairman) invariably give
these vehicles as the finest bus experience of their youth. This is rather a long time ago now for
most of us but we’ve still enough fuel in the tank to be working to restore the sole surviving C&D
Bristol K5G, a type which Roy also mentions.
The "8-foot Guys", as I believe they
were known, were a revelation to us lads when they arrived in three batches in the early 50s. They
were like space-ships compared to the old Bristols. I mean, they had trafficators and
string-operated buzzers! And yes, I did go to school on them, from 1959.
Roy, we (FoCT) would
be very pleased to learn more of your experiences of Chatham, Luton depot and its buses. Our range
of interest extends as far as the withdrawal of the last Chatham Traction bus (in 1970 - the Bristol
breakdown vehicle GKE 65, also mentioned). Interesting that you came down from York. I was born and
raised in Chatham and have now lived in York for 20 years!
Richard Bourne
11/09/12 - 06:47
Great to hear from you, Richard. I’d be delighted to correspond with you
direct about my time at Chatham, and have suggested to Peter that he sends you my e-mail address,
for that purpose, although, as you say, it’s rather a long time ago now. I’ve occasionally viewed
the C&D site and have followed your efforts to restore GKE 68, a sister of the ex-breakdown vehicle.
I’m told, incidentally, that GKE 65 still exists, and might even be for sale, but it’s not,
apparently, in good condition.
Roy Burke
24/12/12 - 07:12
I know it is over a year ago now Mark B but this first time starting was only
achieved when someone pressed the correct button and held down the right switch at the same
time!
Andrew Beever
13/04/13 - 07:29
Lets just say KHL 855 starting up was a team effort! I can’t remember if I
pushed the button and you flicked the switch or was it the other way around? I have now managed to
track down a recording of her being driven from Saville Street to Belle Isle Depot when she was the
Trainer Bus. Sounds fantastic!
Mark B
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/02/15 - 13:56
I’m currently researching for a publication for the OS which I call SOUTH.MOG,
the garages, outstations etc of major ops in Southern England. As RKK 996 is standing outside a
garage, this would be an ideal pic for inclusion. Would it be Ok to use it, and which garage is it?
I suspect Borough Green.
If anyone has historical data on M&D garages, I should be glad to
hear from him.
David Domin
