17/02/12 - 13:29
Just been watching the above.
The bus in question is stated to have a 4-speed syncro gearbox, but to my ears (and also where possible watching the driver change gear), I have to say that it is a Monocontrol gearbox.
The confusing bit is that Bus List on the Web Etc. all state this vehicle as a 3b3ra which is manual, if it was 3b2ra type it would be Monocontrol. Has someone changed the type of gearbox during restoration?
Andy Spiller
17/02/12 - 16:36
I never looked at Bus Lists on the Web, but the PSV Circle publication CXB33 certainly also shows it as 3B3RA, the only monocontrol ones it lists being the two West Bridgford and two King Alfred examples.
I still maintain it sounds purely manual, with the characteristic high pitched whining and the 'quivering' sound as the clutch takes up drive in each gear. Monocontrol boxes usually sounded much more deeply musical and fruity. Unlike some other manual boxes, the AEC synchro gearchange was quite slick hence the apparent lack of effort on the driver's part. The gear lever was positioned lower than the Mk. V's due to its canted over engine alignment.
If anyone connected with the preservation of 190 is a follower of OBP could you let us know ?
John Stringer
17/02/12 - 17:56
I also think this Renown is synchromesh. From memories of the monocontrol Regent Vs of West Bridgford and Grimsby-Cleethorpes, and the Renowns of West Bridgford, the sound was rather of the pre-selector Regents (or perhaps the Routemaster) - but not quite the same as either. It didn't have the whine/wail of the synchromesh type, which itself was similar but not identical to the sound of the earlier sliding-mesh gearbox.
Stephen Ford
18/02/12 - 07:21
I quite agree with the last comment.I conducted the Grimsby Regent Vs and the sound was more akin to a Regent III.When I heard the recording it reminded me of Yorkshire Woollens manual gearbox Regent Vs.
Philip Carlton
18/02/12 - 07:23
Re the discussion on the ex Leicester AEC Renown, as a former member of the 190 Renown Group, I can confirm it has a synchromesh gearbox.
I never drove it, but enjoyed several trips on it as a passenger.
As John Stringer rightly says, the only production Renowns with Monocontrol transmission were the King Alfred and West Bridgford pairs.
Does anyone know of a recording of the preserved King Alfred Renown, to give a comparison?
Incidentally, does anyone know what transmission 8071 ML, the Renown originally demonstrated to London Transport has/had? Might this have been Monocontrol?
Bob Gell
18/02/12 - 07:30
That is the sound of a 3B3RA manual AEC syncromesh gearbox - not a Monocontrol. It's that characteristic (pre-war) whine that makes these (and the Regent Vs) into musical gems for most of us. [Take it from a professional musician!]
David Oldfield
14/08/12 - 11:32
Bob Gell asks about the transmission of the Renown tried out experimentally by the London Transport Country Bus dept. in 1963. This bus, RX1, 8071 ML, was a 3B2RA type, with Monocontrol gearbox. Ian's Bus Stop website gives the capacity of RX1 as H44/25F, which might have been the result of negotiations with the T&GWU. LTE borrowed this bus from AEC in August 1962, to see if it would be a suitable replacement for the aging RT. At the time, in some official quarters, the RM was seen to be too sophisticated and expensive for the Country Bus dept., which was losing money quite alarmingly, and the low height Renown was viewed as a possible alternative. Not for long, though. As was its wont, Chiswick kept the bus for some six months, and then, in February 1963, it was sent to Northfleet for trials on the very busy 480 trunk route between Denton (to the east of Gravesend) and Erith. Although it wore the standard LTE Country Bus green livery, it never carried fleet names or fleet number in LT service. After four months it was returned to Chiswick having singularly failed to impress. I worked in the Divisional Office at Reigate at that time, and I remember Johnny Knell, the Divisional Mechanical Inspector, giving me his less than favourable opinion of the Renown. In particular, I recall his description of the AEC braking characteristics that defied smooth, progressive stopping. Applying the brakes normally had no effect until suddenly they came on too harshly. Easing off the pedal gave no result until, with a whoosh of air escaping, the entire braking effect was lost. It was an unpleasant feature of AEC air brakes that I came to experience personally a couple of years later when I drove the Halifax Regent Vs. RX1 went back to AEC in August 1963, and was bought three months later by Osborne, who probably reseated it to its later capacity of H44/31F. Osborne disposed of 8071 ML in 1979, and it then passed into preservation through a number of owners. It currently resides in the Netherlands.
Roger Cox
22/08/12 - 14:51
Thank you Roger for the information on 8071 ML - the only time I saw this vehicle was at the Oxford Bus Museum, during its time in preservation in the UK
Bob Gell
10/09/12 - 08:00
I think it's highly likely that Wolverhampton's five AEC Renowns were also Monocontrol, since Wolverhampton were buying semi-auto Guys at the time, and in fact I don't think they used manual double deckers at all. The Renowns are recorded as 3B2RA by Peter Gould but 3B3RA elsewhere. A discussion on this subject on another site proved inconclusive.
Peter Williamson
19/11/12 - 17:42
I've just come across a copy of PSV Circle publication 2CXB33, published in 1995.
It gives the Wolverhampton Renowns as 3B2RA, as you surmised.
I stand corrected!
They are given as completed by Metro Cammell on Weymann frames M1965/4/6/2/3,
entering service in June 1966.
The same publication also gives prototype 8071ML seating H44/31F as built.
Referring back to Roger Cox's comments, it looks as if it was downseated by LT
before they put it into service.
Bob Gell
29/07/12 - 16:35
Oh joy! The fluid flywheel: the selected changes: the aristocratic engine gurgle: makes the others seem a bit naff.
Joe
30/07/12 - 07:07
A little harsh Joe! But yes - I always loved the CVD6 sound. My earliest recollections are of the Nottingham City Transport ones which operated out of Sherwood Depot, and dominated the 31 Mapperley route. This included two hills on Woodborough Road - probably about 1 in 7, with, I think, three stops thereon that required first gear starts, followed by a protracted gurgling surge in second, before dipping to the deep-throated thrum of third - music to die for. They were in the minority in Nottingham which was AEC territory, and were relegated to rush hour and works services about 1956, but nearby Derby favoured Daimlers and had loads of CVD6s.
Stephen Ford
23/02/12 - 12:51
On the subject of bus sounds, at Percy Main depot, it was a short run from the roundabout at the bottom of Norham Road up to the depot at Rothbury Tce, on most evenings when services were being run down from the rush hour peak, a Mother would be standing near the garage entrance with her young boy who suffered from downs Syndrome, they'd stand for about an hour and watch the buses come in and go through the wash. We had a mixed fleet, and at one stage we had AEC's Daimlers Guy Arabs and four types of Leylands. Whilst most of us would be able tell one type from another by the sound, this young lad could actually identify each individual bus by it's sound.
Ronnie Hoye
27/07/12 - 15:56
Many thanks to David Page for that wonderful West Riding Arab IV soundfile. And it's authentic, taken in real service 42 years ago! I've often wondered why Guy chose such odd gear ratios: third only about 44% higher than second, but top 74% higher than third. Was it to give best possible acceleration up to, say 20mph? On the clip you certainly hear that quickish 1st-2nd change and much longer pause before reaching top. As a kid I thought a petrol TD1 offered the very best sound effects imaginable, but since my first ride on an Arab IV I've put them joint top. (BTW, I've never driven an Arab IV but yearn to. I've got a clean d/d manual PCV. Any offers?)
Ian Thompson
28/07/12 - 08:46
Interesting observations, Ian on my very favourite vehicle. I've never really thought about the gear ratios, (did all Arab IVs have the same gear and rear axle ratios?). However, the flexibility of a long stroke engine might perhaps have been a factor. Once the bus was in third, it could then cope with a wide variety of urban conditions. I drove Arab IVs more than all other front-engined vehicles put together - partly by choice since I was lucky enough to be 'available to drive' where they were used most, and I enjoyed the experience. They weren't really any more difficult than PD2s or Regents, but it seemed to be more satisfying to drive them well. They had more 'character', I always thought.
They'd put up with all sorts of abuse, which they'd let you, (and the world in general), know about, so it was great to complete a stint in a way that the makers, the Company and the passengers would all have approved of. Each had its own personality, and I loved driving every one of them, apart, maybe, from DH465 which, looking resplendent 2 days after its COF overhaul, had had its exhaust brake re-connected. The appalling noise from this device produced a splitting headache.
My main reason for being such a Guy fan, however, wasn't because I got my PSV licence in one and enjoyed driving them. It lay in their superb operational performance. Their Atlantean stablemates had a higher capacity, of course, and were much faster, but in all other respects, the Arabs beat them into a cocked hat. A comparison of running costs and reliability was almost embarrassing, (to Leyland).
I hope someone offers you a drive in one, which I'm convinced you'd enjoy enormously; at this interval of time, I'm not sure I'd any longer have enough confidence to take the wheel of one.
Roy Burke
09/09/12 - 07:57
Wonderful authentic sound of the West Riding Arab gearbox - hopefully to be heard again when KHL 855 is back on the road after restoration. 855 was recently driven around the yard and sounded exactly right (matching this recording perfectly)
Mark B
21/02/12 - 09:00
At its best, the Panther could be quite thrilling. I used to love riding to work on them in Manchester. The Chesterfield one isn't the best example, which may be because it's been fitted with an O.680 engine in place of its original O.600. But it still manages to sound more like a Panther than anything else.
Peter Williamson
27/07/14 - 07:53
Many thanks indeed to Stephen for providing us with the link to this quite exceptional and glorious recording. The film is, as they say, full of "atmosphere" and strangely the rain just seems to give it that something extra.
The quality of the sound recording of the engine/transmission is exceptionally accurate too. Various appealing features can be seen at the edge of the views such as the nearside trafficator flashing, and the special journey brackets behind the bonnet. Also noticeable is the odd AEC habit of mounting the steering column and wheel leaning just slightly forward and to the right.
I give top marks to the driver for handling the vehicle extremely well, using the engine revs to best advantage and treating the gear change pedal clutch like - NOT like a clutch as such, but allowing the revs to adjust properly while the drive is disengaged. Also delightful is the celebrated London Transport bell with its lovely pure tone.
Now, Stephen may be surprised to hear that I do not have any objection, on totally flat roads like the 29 route shown, to second gear moving off. All makes and models have differing characteristics and "preferences" but the preselector Mark 111 9.6 Regent is perfectly happy to move off in second gear on the level unless very heavily laden. Another top mark for the driver who engaged neutral at most if not all stops.
Incidentally did everyone notice the selfish cyclist (just after 1 minute) who overtook the Wright double decker without the slightest glance over his shoulder or any signal at all.
I shall be watching this wonderful video many times, and drooling all the while.
Chris Youhill
17/04/15 - 10:02
Many thanks to Stephen Ford for the Sunderland Crossley link. Obviously a meticulous restoration, the engine and gearbox sounds evoking happy memories of 1950-68 in Reading. The video brings out the excellent visibility from the cab. Thanks too to the driver for his very competent handling: those first-gear starts made the experience all the more enjoyable. Restoration of Reading 85 (ERD 154) continues.
Ian T
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