Mystery Saloon Bus Williamson Bridlington

I am trying to trace a mystery Daimler saloon bus possibly a CK type or that era.
It came from the Lincoln area the registration is unclear but might read FE 211? Lincoln city did not have a bus fleet as far as I know. A register search would be unrealistic with out a full or correct reg number so hopefully someone out there might have an answer.

Ian Gibbs

28/01/12 - 06:45

Lincoln city had an all bus operation from the late 1920s they were Leyland users pre war and were allocated utility Guys before going back to Leyland and Guy in post war years They did buy one batch of AEC Bridgemasters and switched from Panthers and Atlanteans to Bristol products in their last days as a separate undertaking

Chris Hough

28/01/12 - 14:48

I do not remember any "C" series early Daimlers in the early Lincoln municipal fleet.
The Williamson PSV Circle fleet list shows 3 Daimlers of that era, but not with Lincolnshire marks.
Is a photograph of this vehicle available?

John Whitaker

29/01/12 - 07:35

Thanks Chris and John The source of this reg number was a very poor snap I copied it onto Agfa slide film viewed it via projector the starting handle covers part of the plate It may be possible to have the slide printed but image was very bad.

Ian Gibbs

31/01/12 - 08:06

The history of Lincoln Corporation Transport (Cyril Cooke, 2006) includes a full fleet list, and no Daimlers until some second-hand Fleetlines bought post deregulation.
The Corporation's first motor buses are recorded as Dennis CABs with bodies by Thompson (LL Motor Body Works) of Louth, Lincs - new in 1920 they carried registration numbers FE 3931, 3932 and 3966.
If the vehicle in the photo is FE 211x, that suggests something a year or two earlier.
There's nothing similar listed in the history of Lincs Road Car (Graham Wise, 2003) in the fleet list of the buses that came to the company when it formed in 1928 either.
Sorry if this doesn't help much - it might at least rule out a couple of possibilities. There were a lot of small companies in and around Lincoln in the 1918-1939 era, and unless they got taken over by a larger company, it's possible that records don't exist.

Jon

16/02/12 - 08:42

Here is a poor copy of the Daimler Saloon - maybe reg no FL 211 in Brid from my collection via C Williamson, plus a picture of the Nth Landing-Thornwick Bay Cafe connected with A Robinson's Green Bus Service (Robinson was quite enterprising as was his wife she organised 'Land Tours' for the well to do using Lancia Char-a-bancs they were direct antecedents to the style of tours EYMS began or so I was told, a photo shows a Robinson Lancia with a 'Bridlington-Devonshire' destination board on the windscreen! her favourite driver on these was Mr Elliot Flockton.
I believe that Mr A Robinson had something to do with the original cafe setup as you can see a small saloon bus parked nearby. The vehicle may be a small Lancia Armoured Car chassis ex Military N. Ireland 1921, rebodied in Brid's Old Town, or it could be one of J Atkins' GMC K Types that had pulled off for a passengers refreshment stop. This is also Copyright from my collection passed to me by Mr Lewis who had been Archer Robinsons' Company Secretary Final point on Robinson and Caravan sites he intended setting up a Thornwick Area Site after selling buses in 1929 but had problems with planners so gave up the scheme.

Ian Gibbs

16/02/12 - 16:49

Re. the Williamson (Bridlington) Daimler on your posting today.
Well, its definitely a Daimler, and with "Old Town" it is certainly of the Williamson ilk!
However, there is no Daimler with an FL reg. either in the PSV Circle list. This is a Huntingdonshire/Peterborough mark.
Are you sure it is not BT4227, XM 1716, or WT 8038?
Or could it be Blue Bus?
I remember the cafe at North Landing very well, it being there well into the post war era, when I knew White Bus Service, and I spent some time there as a youngster when some friends had a Lion PLSC holiday bungalow under the old lighthouse tower. Was there not a similar cafe at the Lighthouse turn area at Flamborough?
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me on the wonderful Brid independents will be able to solve the mystery of this Daimler (CK type?)

John Whitaker

17/02/12 - 08:10

Hi John W thanks for your thoughts on the Daimler and the cafe.
Re Williamson fleet list there are some small inaccuracies in the psv circle list, BT 4227 is a double deck bodied bus I have a picture of this, it went to Ripley who was a ford agent in Brid also dealt in secondhand sales I believe.
XM 1716 the number is thought to be wrong for a psv, the nearest I tried was XN 1716 which I think was LGOC S701 this bus was scrapped 11/31 there may be a source for XM 1716 I just have not found it WT 8038 it was a Red living van it seems as a document dated Jan 1925 West Riding cc states this. Also it had not been registered under the 1920 roads act until '25 though engine is a 1922 date of manufacture, the owner has supplied an Agents sales docs to the Council the explanation for non registration is an illegible scrawl however the registration book is issued. The chassis no. fits psv circle data but model is written CJK! on Council form. So it may have gone to Williamson June 1925 I will try again to check the registration prefix letters but FL is the nearest I could fathom so ex-Peterborough area is also my conclusion. There are odd vehicles not in the psv lists for both A Robinson and Williamson. WF 3908 is wrong, also there was a Morris Commercial in Williamsons fleet with a body made in Colchester I do not have a reg for it unless that is the Thorntons of Otley Morris Commercial I recall there was a cafe gift shop very near the lighthouse. re White Bus BT 3326 it was a Ford Lorry when new.

Ian Gibbs

17/02/12 - 11:31

Yes Ian, you are quite correct when you say there are inaccuracies in the PSV Circle list. This applies to White Bus too, as there is photographic evidence of an HS registered FC. Leyland Cub, which is not mentioned, plus other missing detail for ex Halifax regents, and London Daimlers.
Keep up the good work, and let us all know if you get a result!

John Whitaker

18/02/12 - 09:30

As we are back in Bridlington again can anybody identify this photo I picked up in a local library a couple of months ago, it is at Flamborough Lighthouse and seems to be registered BT 293 or 298, it looks like an overloaded car but is carrying boards for Lighthouse and Caves.
I think it may be Williamsons but that is only a guess and what make is it?--just another mystery Bridlington bus, but it is a good photo of an old bus.

Mike Davies

18/02/12 - 16:27

John W I have seen photos of the HS 8306 Lion Cub with two bodies so they must have swopped one at some time so it might be one and the same vehicle if not then that is interesting re the slide picture I've had an offer to get it scanned by a professional person in about two weeks time so this may produce a decent copy lets hope so

Ian Gibbs

21/02/12 - 16:44

Yes any more information and photos and of course a book on Bridlington operators would be first class.

Mike Davies

21/02/12 - 16:45

I have been trying to concentrate (difficult at my age!) on the early post war fleet of Williamson, Bridlington, and would like to pose the following possibilities/probabilities re. the following, if anyone can help. KH 4071 (PLSC1) sold to Boddys c.1945/6.
I know for a fact that some Bradford friends purchased a PLSC1 from Boddys, which they converted to A caravan at Flamborough 1946. Is this it?
DT 9643, and DT 5337. Could these be the 2 caravans which arrived at Skipsea cliff top in 1951, in maroon livery? I had always thought they came direct from Doncaster.
Finally, unless I am totally "doo lally", my memory tells me that I rode on a centre entrance TD2 on a service from Filey to Flamborough in 1947/8.
I am wondering if this could possibly be HD 4803, which spent the first 3 months of 1948 in the ownership of Wallace Arnold, before going to Williamson. Is it possible that Boddy hired this bus from WA, as I remember the service as being run by Boddy, albeit on a very short term basis.
any clarification or correction of these blurred memories would be most welcome.

John Whitaker

22/02/12 - 07:22

I can help John with one of his queries. The two six wheel caravans to which he refers must have come direct from Doncaster if they were in maroon. The two which Williamson's ran were painted to the usual high standard in that operator's fabulous livery of two blues and cream.

Chris Youhill

06/03/12 - 17:57

Hi Mike and readers the vehicle shown at the lighthouse is a Napier 12/14hp Brid museum has a similar photo. Now a query for Keith E on Hull please, is there any record of the two Hired-in buses that ran trials on the Newbridge Road proposed route in 1923, said to have been a saloon AEC and a double-decker Leyland two drivers came with the buses and stayed at KHCT when the buses left.

Ian Gibbs

20/03/12 - 07:21

Hi Ian, With regards to Tooth & Waddington's loan of buses and drivers to Hull Corporation, such information as I have come across is as follows:
The PSVC fleet history PB22 gives a Leyland open top decker and an AEC/Tylor toastrack, however, in an article on Buses Extra, several years ago an article by Graham Wise on KHCT, give the following information: "The two buses involved were Leyland (BT 7268 or 7269) and AEC YDN type (BT 5288)."
Of course I cannot verify the information as being correct, but it does coincide with the PB22 fleet history.

Keith Easton

31/03/12 - 12:47

Keith thanks for the message re KHCT hired in buses its nice when info comes in to help with a query such as this I thought you might have an answer Yes the BT 7268/9 are in the T&T Fleet may 1924, I must find a copy of that buses extra magazine also the PB22 does PSVC visit Pudsey I used to be in the PSVC but moving about so much I just decided to exchange info with Mike Walker to update ops cards as I found it and dropped out. somewhere on the site i saw a mention of KH 4071 recently It was new to Harry Tyler partner to David Burn when they set up Grey De Luxe 1927 after selling Grey bus to 1926 It appears to go from Hull motor tax to the East Riding C C tax presumably R Williamson 12/36 later on to J Boddy 'by/47'. Is the 'Tylor' Toastrack the name of the body maker or Engine!

Ian Gibbs

01/04/12 - 08:26

Hi Ian, with reference to PB22, it is by now out of print, as it is not listed on the PSVC website, but according to the January editorial a new edition is being prepared, but of course, I have no idea as to when it will actually appear in print. Regarding the AEC BT 5288, from T&W; it is listed in PB17 as being new to Archer Robinson in 7/22. In addition to this, the fleet lists for TT&T and T&W both list an AEC Y as being new to the former in 7/22, and passed to the latter. It seems probable that this was indeed BT 5288, and probably the basis of Graham's statement in his article. The article I have is a photocopy, whatever happened to the original magazine I do not know, so I cannot be definite as to when it was published, but sometime in the early '80's I think.

Keith Easton

04/04/12 - 08:31

Hi Keith thanks for the upbate on the pb22 booklet. re TT&T T&W the fleet list should be a gem of info.
I contacted the Mr Trown from OBP query page and it was his grandfather who was a driver for TT&T I was able to give a little info re the firm it proves what a super resource we have in the OBP.

Ian Gibbs

02/10/16 - 06:47

I attach two photos taken by the late George H Bullock in May 1945 at Bridlington of vehicles which I presume are operated by GR Williamson:

The first one shows a bus with the fleet number 24 - it's a Leyland and it's passing the New Inn PH at the junction of Queen St. and Cross St. I can't quite read the destination blind but it's on a route number 11 (as not a lot of independents used route numbers is this a Williamson vehicle - maybe EYMS??)

The second one shows a bus mentioned in the above thread as having carried two bodies. It's reg. no. HS 8306 - a Leyland Lion Cub - destination is Flamboro - so a local route.

Roger Monk

02/10/16 - 11:22

Roger, Many thanks for two wonderful pictures previously unseen by me. The first one is possibly my very favourite Williamson bus from my childhood, DV 4117. Ex Devon General and with Hall Lewis dual doorway body it is the only Williamson's bus ever to carry such a comprehensive destination display - both their routes were only a little over one mile each and so almost every house is named so to speak!! The famous route number reads "11 AUX" and so is obviously the Devon General roll, the word "AUX" obviously being DG speak for duplicate or short working. The bus is entering Queen Street en route for Old Town - the other route was Queensgate - and with respect I think the street opposite is Prince Street rather than Cross Street.

The attached picture, source unknown but I've treasured it for years, shows DV 4117 at the Chapel Street terminus waiting to leave for Queensgate - both routes required one bus only each. The bus stop pole outside the chapel was in a "golf hole" socket in the pavement and was moved on Sundays to a similar socket nearer to the Promenade as a mark of respect for The Sabbath - who can imagine that today ?? A few folks have rejected this as a figment of my imagination but I assure everyone that its true.
I don't recognise the large dark buildings in the picture of HS 8306 but it could well be Queen Street, the terminus of the Flamborough services of WBS - although they used to depart facing the other way on the short bit of dual carriageway with "facilities" in the middle, subterranean in the old days.

Also attached is a Yorkshire Woollen Leyland in City Square Leeds - it identical and from the same batch as Williamson's HD 3773 and so on those grounds it fills a gap in the pictures of the Williamson fleet.

Chris Youhill

14/10/16 - 17:49

Thanks, Chris for your helpful comments on the two photos above. I hadn't previously found another Williamson's discussion thread on OBP where you posted a photo of Williamson's no. 24 at the Chapel Street terminus. I can tell you a bit more about the provenance of that photo you have treasured for so long. It was taken by a family friend, the late George H Bullock, during a holiday visit to Bridlington in May 1945. The original negative for this photo still exists but it's currently in the queue awaiting scanning. Once I have scanned it I should be able to provide a better quality version of the photo. It is a superb photo taken at a time when film was difficult to come by. The nearside view of this same vehicle (above) should answer the questions raised in the original discussion about the position of the entrance. By the way, I use Google Maps and StreetView plus the old Ordnance Survey large scale maps on www.old-maps.co.uk as a means of locating the positions photographs were taken.

I also have the (attached) 1935 photo, taken by G H Bullock of a Williamson's o/t double decker parked in the middle of the street outside the New Inn, Bridlington. I have the information on this vehicle as reg. no. WT 8068 a Daimler with a ??? body.

Roger Monk

15/10/16 - 08:57

Thanks to Roger for this latest twist in the fascinating story of Williamson and Bridlington independants. Just like "manna from heaven"!
I have copies of most of the well known photos, some printed, but some stored on USB sticks. Is it possible to have some download ability for DV 4117 and the 1935 view just put on, so that we old time enthusiasts of that long gone Bridlington can sit in our armchairs and enjoy?
"Brid`s Early Buses", that wonderful publication by Ian Gibbs, is never far from said armchair!
This ongoing thread has been an amazing source of pure enjoyable nostalgia, so thanks again, Roger.

John Whitaker

15/10/16 - 09:18

The PSV Circle have the Double-decker as WT 8038, new in jan 1925 to an unknown owner, with Williamson by June 1925, possibly as a single-deck bus, originally seating 36, then 46, and by the time the photograph was taken, 45. It was withdrawn in 1934.

David Hick

15/10/16 - 09:57

As David says, WT 8038 is a Daimler CK, and there is a side view of what I think is the same bus in Ian`s book, along with several others such as BT 4227.
In this side view photo, she clearly has solid tyres, and again, as David points out, there is a strong suggestion of conversion from single deck.

John Whitaker

16/10/16 - 09:56

Many thanks to John and David for their comments on the photo of Williamson's WT8038 (thanks too for the correction to the reg. no. - which is not too clear on the original). I have the date of the photo recorded by the photographer as 1935 but if the vehicle was withdrawn in 1934 then this must be incorrect.
You can create a copy of the photos on your PC by using the Snipping Tool which is in Windows Accessories.

Roger Monk

17/10/16 - 11:03

Yes indeed - the very imaginative conversion to double deck is quite apparent when its pointed out and I must say that its a very neat and workable job and a credit to whoever carried it out.

Chris Youhill

18/10/16 - 07:55

I don't think that this is the same bus that appears in Ian Gibbs book, but it could be the same body. All the lining details and the staircase seem to be the same, but the the lower edge of the body work on WT 8038 rises to meet the cab, and the body appears to be a little shorter on WT 8038. Mr Gibbs notes that the lining on BT 5880 was a notable feature of this bus. If this lining was unique, did the body pass from BT 5880 to WT 8038?

David Hick

20/10/16 - 07:30

Following the interest shown on OBP in the Williamson's photo taken in Bridlington attached are three EYMS photos taken by George H Bullock at the EYMS Bus Station in 1935 & 1945. Any thoughts or contributed information from the OBP experts would be most welcome.
I like that map on the wall - part of which appears top right in the first photo. I wonder, did it survive WWII?

Also attached is another George Bullock photo of an EYMS vehicle - AKH 777 at Northalerton on a Newcastle-Hull service in 1935.

Roger Monk

20/10/16 - 09:18

Thank you Roger for the evocative photos of the Bridlington EYMS scene which I remember so well from my youth (and earlier !) I am transported back in time to the bus station, where we regularly caught the EYMS bus to Hornsea.
As a Bradfordian, I was fascinated by EYMS, as a change of atmosphere from my well loved Bradford and West Yorkshire interests. EYMS was so different in livery, as well as such features as oval rear windows and double deckers with 3 window upper fronts!
And then, of course, there were Williamson, and WBS, where vehicles from an earlier time were still in use!
Happy Days indeed, Roger....I cannot thank you enough!

John Whitaker

20/10/16 - 15:51

Three glorious pictures of the Promenade Bus Station, a marvellous place in blue and cream tiles, and with enthusiast interest beyond the wildest expectations. As a frequent visitor to relations in Bridlington I can't be certain but I'm pretty sure that the map survived well after WW2. The double decker demonstrates clearly the economy achieved by the little flaps which were changed at each terminus, allowing only one intermediate display per return journey - in this case the intermediate points would be correct for the journey from Hull, but are now wrong way round but who cared. How many I wonder remember the tiny United bus station and office just across the Promenade, with a forecourt for two or three buses. Their service 111 to Scarborough via an inland route set off from there.

Chris Youhill

21/10/16 - 06:23

I was very pleased to see, Chris Y, that you share the same love of those early post war years in the Brid area. I knew as much from previous posts, but they were truly glorious days indeed!
The Bridlington EYMS bus station was a very cramped place, based on a one way system, and I well remember the map on the wall surviving at least until 1953. That was the time my Dad got his first car, and our regular Skipsea trips were then somewhat different with us not using the bus from Bradford in the same way.
I can also remember the United bus station on the Promenade, as you point out, where I used to closely inspect the body differences between the pre war United L5Gs and our own WY breed, well before the advent of post war L types and the LS era. Bridlington in those years was a special place for sure!

John Whitaker

21/10/16 - 06:25

The large map remained in place at Bridlington Bus station until the bus station closed in 8/84, may be in a different form, the bus station then became a car park, and later the map was painted over. A photo shows it in its early days and later after the bus station closed.
The Williamson's and EYMS photos in Bridlington are brilliant, I would love to see any others taken in the Bridlington area.

Roger, is it possible from your original photo of saloon buses in Bridlington bus station to tell what the registration numbers are? they both start with WF and will be ex Bridlington & District I would think,

Mike Davies

29/10/16 - 07:04

My thanks to John, Chris and Mike for their comments, etc. on the EYMS Bridlington Bus Station photos that you posted on OBP. Comparing the photos it looks as though the content of the map was changed at some stage - e.g. 'Hull' becoming 'Kingston upon Hull'.
From the lists I have I don't think there are any other photos taken by George Bullock in the Bridlington area but there are still some of his negatives to scan.
Mike asks if its possible to discern the reg. nos. of the two single deckers in the bus station in 1935 on the original negative scan. The one on the left looks to be WF 25 (?) 33 - the fleet no. is obscured by the staff member; the one on the right is less clear but it would seem to be WF 2?88 and the fleet number is almost certainly 219. I'm no expert on buses so I can't tell from the radiators who built the chassis - I have even less clue as to the body builder(s). I wonder how many times the vehicle starting handle has obscured at least one of the characters in the reg. no. of a vehicle in a photo!! If Mike can fill me in with any more details of the vehicles I would appreciate them.

Roger Monk

29/10/16 - 08:54

Thanks for the efforts Roger. From my EYMS fleet list, I think the vehicle on the left is 168, a Leyland Lion LT1 with Leyland body taken over in 1929 with the Bridlington and District fleet. WF 2533 219 is a very similar bus, taken over with the Binnington of Willerby fleet in 1933. Both buses lasted with EYMS until 1939. Fleet list available on this site and greatly appreciated!

John Whitaker

30/10/16 - 06:32

Thanks Roger. 168 WF 2533 and 219 WF 2499 makes sense. I will look forward to seeing any bus photos you find, Bridlington or not.

Mike Davies

22/09/21 - 06:23

Regarding WT 8038, This vehicle was new to J Sanderson of as a living van (was Mr Sanderson a showman?) from whom Mr Williamson acquired it in June 1925. It was rebodied with a spare body (possibly from BT 5880?), rebodied as O46RO by 7/26 and again as O45RO 6/31. It was withdrawn 12/34. The bodywork on BT 5880 as shown in Ian Gibbs' book "Brid's Early Buses" page 91 appears to be identical. I trust that this is of interest.

Keith Easton

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