Gas Buses in Hull

As a kid I remember seeing a bus on the 45 route towing a trailer with what I thought then as a fire in the trailer. I am now 74 and until recently I found some one who remembered these things now I would like to know of anybody else who could throw some light on the subject, the man that could have answered me was my father as he was a conductor for quite some time alas no longer with us.

G Derrick

23/08/12 - 07:04

The apparatus that you saw being towed behind a bus in Hull was very probably a producer gas trailer. These could only be used to propel petrol engined vehicles. Diesels could not be converted to run on this gas. Ian's Bus Stop website contains the following excellent description of the trailers:-

"These trailers manufactured producer gas by drawing air through hot coke. The gas was piped onto the bus, and along to a gas-tank in front of the front bulkhead, and into the engine. The engines had to be modified, with an increased bore and compression ratio. Petrol was still required for starting, with modified carburettor jets, and manual advance/retard of the ignition. Garages had to be equipped for daily maintenance of the trailers, and procedures installed for firing them up and attaching them to the buses. These were started with petrol and then the gas supply was phased in and the petrol supply out. Standing still in operation for more than a few minutes gave its problems too, as it was engine throughput that kept the fire burning hotly and the gas producing. Trailers were good for about 80 miles, so schedules had to allow for the swapping of buses, as conductors were not expected to be stokers! Special turning arrangements had to be made for the gas buses too. In general the performance was poor, and gas buses were restricted to a few no too hilly routes. They smelled, too."

This decidedly dubious method of reducing the country's dependency upon imported fuels in wartime was strongly promoted by J.F.Heaton, the chairman of Thomas Tilling, and he managed to convince the Ministry of War Transport that bus operators should be compelled to convert a proportion of their fleets, usually 10%, to run on producer gas. Initially, the government hoped to convert some 10,000 vehicles to producer gas "power"(the typical loss of power compared with petrol fuel was around 40%), though the eventual total number of trailer units built was actually around 2,500. Needless to say, the manipulative Heaton gained a contract for the manufacture of many of these trailers by the works of the Tilling owned Bristol company. So completely did Heaton convince the wartime government of the value of these things, that he was rewarded with a knighthood, becoming Sir Frederick Heaton in 1941.

Roger Cox

23/08/12 - 07:05

Buses with gas-producing trailers were common during World War II, as a means of saving fuel. They could only be used on petrol-engine'd vehicles, but one problem was that the engines did not produce the power they were designed to do with petrol. The conduct(ors/resses) were usually charged with topping-up the fires when needed. Here is a photo of such a bus: www.birminghamforum.co.uk/ Later in the war, another austerity measure, designed to overcome the shortage of rubber, dictated that buses used in the morning rush-hour were then parked in city centres to await the evening rush-hour.

Chris Hebbron

23/08/12 - 07:07

Hull Corporation operated nine (as far as is known) buses with producer gas trailers, in the 1943 to 1944 period, all trailers were withdrawn in October, 1944 and the buses reverted to normal propulsion. Buses known are: AEC Regent 661/English Electric H27/20R 79, 87 and 91 (RH4766/75/79) and Leyland Titan TD2's 95, 96, 99 to 102 (RH6103/4/7-10. The TD2's had English Electric H24/24R bodywork. Conversion took place between May and September, 1943. It is not know which routes these vehicles operated on. I trust the above is of interest.

Keith Easton

23/08/12 - 08:36

Keith's reply to this question has me agog with excitement, as a postwar resident of Ilkley. There was in nearby Addingham a most elegant and fascinating bus used for some form of contract hire or works transport and I saw it almost daily in Ilkley. It was all over green, and purred along beautifully with its Leyland petrol engine - only now have I discovered that RH 6103 had suffered such smelly indignity in the War. If anyone has a picture of the vehicle I would love to obtain a copy for Old time's sake.

Chris Youhill

24/08/12 - 08:23

Hi Chris, Unfortunately I have never ever seen any photographs of Hull Corporation buses with the gas trailer, nor of East Yorkshire (they had 12).
The only sources that I can think of that may have such photo's are Paul Morfitt or Malcolm Wells, both of whom have large collections of Hull photo's. If I ever do come across one I will pass a copy on to you (but please, don't hold your breath!)

Keith Easton

24/08/12 - 08:31

A late friend of mine recalled the gas producer buses in Nottingham during the War. These worked on service 14 to West Bridgford as this terminated adjacent to the West Bridgford UDC bus garage and it could turn without having to reverse. Peter remembered that the two petrol engined Regents used were very much down on power and struggled to climb the slight incline of the Carrington Street railway bridge outside Nottingham Midland Station.

Michael Elliott

24/08/12 - 12:32

You last paragraph about JF Heaton, Roger, was an eye-opener for me. No doubt the idea was considered a useful feature to save on fuel, but the principle was flawed. All that extra hard work for drivers, already struggling with vehicles already suffering from fatigue and under-maintenance. No wonder they were all gone by about October 1944.
I have seen a photo of a London ST (the main class to suffer these abominations) with a French version bolted to the rear of the bus; an experiment I suspect. I’ll have to try and find it. With the fall of France, I suspect it was quickly removed.
As an aside, vehicles in World War I usually had gasbags stuck on the roofs, mainly taxis, to my knowledge. I’ve never seen a photo of a bus with one. In World War II, Berlin doppel-deckers, late in the war, had gas tanks fitted inside the upstairs saloons, which, I assume, rendered them passengerless! I have a feeling they were diesels, so don’t ask me how that worked!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/12 - 12:33

Bradford Corporation operated Gas Producer buses in 1942 and converted some of their 1936 AEC Regent O661 "Regents" 421 to 430. These buses had diesel AEC A171 7 .7 litre engines. I also note that two special 30ft Bristol L6GG were built with a gas producer unit incorporated into the body. These single deckers were fitted with a Gardner 6LW diesel engine. I think it can be said that gas producers worked on both diesel and petrol engine buses. Needless to say this was a short-lived experiment as bus performance was poor, even with a diesel. The Bristols were rebuilt with a shorter body after removal of the gas producer unit.

Richard Fieldhouse

24/08/12 - 12:35

Many thanks for that Keith, I didn't actually mean a picture of the bus with a trailer - any nice picture of RH 6103 in normal service would be wonderful. It really was a most elegant vehicle, with just a slight hint of "indignation" in its expression - many will know what I mean by that, while others will just say that I'm completely batty - who cares eh ??

Chris Youhill

24/08/12 - 16:03

I am wondering if there were 2 types of gas producer gas trailer, firstly the one described by Chris Y. where hot air was drawn through a coke fire, and, secondly, one fired by anthracite, as described in "Bradford Motorbuses", by Stanley King. Certainly, as Richard says, oil engined buses were so fitted, including some JO5gs of West Yorkshire RCC.
Secondly, there is plenty of photographic evidence of town gas bags on the roofs of buses and lorries during WW1. Bournemouth springs immediately to mind.

John Whitaker

25/08/12 - 07:35

As I recall, John, coke is a by-product of coal, in other words, coke has had all the gas burnt out of it. So you wouldn’t use coke to start with.
Thx John, for filling in my knowledge of ‘gas-bagged’ buses. I can just imagine a queue of buses filling up at the local gasworks!

Chris Hebbron

25/08/12 - 07:35

I have copied the following from the internet.
"Diesel engines can be converted to full producer gas operation by lowering the compression ratio and the installation of a spark ignition system. Another possibility is to run a normal unconverted diesel engine in a "dual fuel" mode, whereby the engine draws anything between 0 and 90 per cent of its power output from producer gas, the remaining diesel oil being necessary for ignition of the combustible gas/air mixture. A diesel engine cannot be operated on producer gas alone, it needs to be operated on dual fuel or converted completely into spark ignition engine."
The cost effectiveness of trying to run a diesel on producer gas must have been abysmal.

Roger Cox

25/08/12 - 07:37

Copyright Omnibus Society/JGS Smith

As promised, here is LPTB’s ST1100, on trade plates, whilst on loan to Gas Producers (Bellay) Ltd, an AEC subsidiary, formed to develop the French system. The bus needed an 18” chassis extension, involving obtaining legal dispensation for the extra length. One wonders whether the springs also needed uprating, to allow for the extra weight!
As the fitment lasted lasted only from November 1939 to May 1940, we must assume that either it wasn’t successful or the trailer system was preferred.

Chris Hebbron

25/08/12 - 08:50

Thanks Chris H for that very dramatic picture of ST 1100 - its almost impossible to imagine the terror that the appearance in today's streets of such a monstrosity would cause - and I imagine that any potential passengers, and the conductor, would run a mile rather than embark !!

Chris Youhill

26/08/12 - 07:35

You're right, Chris Y, it's like some infernal machine a la HG Wells! The heat from it alone would likely scare away any potential passenger!

Chris Hebbron

26/08/12 - 07:36

With that much weight hanging off the back of the chassis, it must have made the steering very light and the handling on corners somewhat unpredictable especially in the wet. A dark wet night journey on that bus would have been a memorable journey both for the driver and passengers!

Richard Leaman

26/08/12 - 12:00

Thank you Chris H and Richard. The more I think about it I just cant credit how, even in the dire emergency of the War, such a device could be allowed in populated areas. Imagine the red hot contrivance within inches of people on the pavement, while the bus is standing particularly, and likewise adjacent to petrol engined cars galore in traffic jams. Also, if a rogue fire should develop in the trailer then the emergency escape from both decks is blocked. Its quite an amazing and almost unbelievable phenomenon.

Chris Youhill

26/08/12 - 18:11

It’s hard to believe that such an invention lasted through the war without there being some mishaps or near misses. No doubt such events would have been hushed up!
Trawling the web, I notice from the London Gazette of the period, that Gas Producers (Bellay) Ltd were not struck off the Companies’ Register until June 1958. I bet the company had been moribund for many a year!

Chris Hebbron

28/08/12 - 18:09

Would traffic jams have been a problem during the War, with the restrictions on private motoring? Also, there wasn’t the same level of ‘elf’n’safety zealotry in those days and people were used to coping routinely with things that might be regarded as dangerous nowadays. There was still plenty of horse-drawn traffic on the roads, with motive power units that bolted, kicked, bit, and deposited their exhaust on the road for the unwary to step in. There was still steam power on the roads, traction engines and steamrollers, with hot boilers, massive fires, and high-pressure steam, all mere inches away from the general public. And anyway people were used to open fires in their homes and even on the streets, where night watchmen huddled for warmth around blazing braziers.
And of course there was a war on. I don’t suppose the H&S hazards of gas-producer trailers counted for much against those inflicted on the populace by the Luftwaffe.
As someone once said, “the past is another country. They do things differently there.”

Michael Wadman

18/04/16 - 06:44

The gas buses were used exclusively on services 21 and 22 from the Coach Station to Hall Road They were very unpopular even Mr Pulfrey, the general manager, stating in committee that he would get rid of them if he could!
They were slower than other buses and delayed the trolleybuses on the 63 along Beverley Road. Passengers complained in the press and urged the Transport Department to extend trolleybus service 67 instead.
they were concentrated on the 21 and 22 because the stop in the coach station was alongside the railway station wall and not in the main bus stands.
Breakdowns were very few and they ran well but were not suitable for city traffic according to Mr Pulfrey

Malcolm Wells

11/07/16 - 07:26

During WW2 I was living in South Wales; a number of old London Transport buses (Tilling ST I think) in their original livery were in use in the Taff Valley with producer gas trailers. There was a store of the trailers on the Treforest Industrial Estate close to the OP chocolate factory. I don't know if they were made or just stored there.
Pontypridd Urban District Council ran a fleet of buses and trolley buses - the latter between Treforest and Cilfynedd. Some of the trolleys came from Hull - again never repainted.
Again, the Tilling ST with open rear staircase was identified on Ian's Bus Stop site, and an enclosed staircase variant is also shown with a gas trailer on tow.

Karl W Smith

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