Leeds City Transport
1958
Leyland Titan PD3/5
Roe H38/32R

This handsome Leyland Titan PD3/5 was the Roe exhibit at the 1958 Earls Court Show It was one of 70 bought by Leeds for tramway replacement The batch were used extensively on the Moortown – Middleton group of former tram routes and most of them lasted into the mid seventies. They were Leeds last exposed radiator Leylands and also the last Roe bodied Titans to enter service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hough

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

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18/05/12 – 07:46

I remember visiting the 1958 Earls Court Show and seeing the Leeds PD3 and admiring the Roe body a maker hardly known in the south of England where I lived at the time although by the time of the show, being in the RAF stationed near Lincoln I had become familiar with the City transport fleet of Leylands and Guys with handsome Roe bodies. One particular Roe bodied PD3 I took a few trips on belonged to Hudsons of Horncastle the journey between Lincoln and it’s home town was through very rural country the bus gave a very comfortable ride and was resplendent in a cream and blue livery.
There was a tradition of having a Roe bodied Leeds City Transport bus at Earls Court when the show was held there every two years the last one I can remember was a 33ft panoramic windowed Fleetline, in 1966 I think, another very attractive bus, the Earls Court shows were enjoyable as you could get in or onto nearly all of the exhibits.

Diesel Dave

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18/05/12 – 07:47

A true classic but in my opinion spoiled by the Leeds practice of having the unpainted engine cover. Anybody know why they did that? But on the other hand wasn’t it such features together with the illuminated ‘Limited’ sign, another Leeds feature, that made our hobby so interesting. We can all doubtless name little features that made our cherished operators just that bit special.

Philip Halstead

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18/05/12 – 07:48

As well as the lining out this bus carried initially, like most show exhibits, I recall it having one other distinctive feature from the show. The kick plates on the staircase all had the Roe "toffee" emblem embossed on them. A neat touch.

David Beilby

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18/05/12 – 10:25

The unpainted bonnets were to stop possible scratches whilst under going routine maintenance etc which would have made them look untidy.

Roger Broughton

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18/05/12 – 12:17

Surprisingly Leeds’s last AEC Regent Vs with enclosed radiators dating from 1966 also carried polished bonnets although enclosed radiator Daimlers and Leylands did not.

Chris Hough

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18/05/12 – 12:19

What can I do but agree about the beauty of the classic Roe design – although I feel the Leeds (non-standard) window pans didn’t do it justice.

David Oldfield

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18/05/12 – 15:59

I see the Titan codes list of PD2 models omits the "Blackpool Special" PD2/5. I may be wrong, but I’ve always understood that the PD2/4 was supplied either only to Bolton or only to Bolton and Bury.

Pete Davies

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18/05/12 – 16:57

I always thought the idea of the unpainted hatch was to help show/clean off all the oil and fluids that spray off the engine…

Joe

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18/05/12 – 16:57

Chris, I think the PD3a’s and Daimlers bonnets would be painted because they were fibreglass the Regent V still being metal.

Eric Bawden

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19/05/12 – 07:41

Were the pan-glazed windows unique to Leeds? All other Roe bodies of this style that I’ve seen had rubber gasket mounted windows

Chris Barker

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19/05/12 – 07:42

A large batch of PD2s sold to CIE were unofficially known as Boltons by Irish enthusiasts as they were identical to the Bolton examples. One Bolton example survives as a tow car in the Manchester Museum of Transport.

Chris Hough

Copyright M Bishop

Isle of Man Road Services Ltd
1950
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

I received the above two photographs along with a shot of a Tiger Cub from Michael Bishop with the following:-

“I was on the Isle of Man to explore the railways, but found the IOMR had just closed! Lord Ailsa came along the following year, which is why there is still something left. Another reason for going everywhere by bus. So I’m afraid I know nothing about buses, although I remember the bus I took the interior shot of made a lovely noise. It seems to have LEYLAND on the gearbox(?) casing. So I cannot tell you more about them. The bus was at Peel and taken on 28.5.66.”

‘Not knowing anything about buses’ in my opinion isn’t a good enough reason for not showing an internal shot of such a classic vehicle.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Bishop

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15/05/12 – 18:06

Don’t come much better than all Leyland PD2s, but can anyone explain why Isle of Man always had these peculiar off balance upper deck ventilators (ONLY on the near-side)?

David Oldfield

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16/05/12 – 07:51

I never understood that either, but it did make the IOMRS fleet rather distinctive. (I have a feeling I have seen a photo of a similarly equipped PD2 with another operator, but I can’t remember where or with whom). Very nice to see that tidy interior shot too. It reminds me of Barton’s second hand no. 754 (GUT 455) ex-Allens, Mountsorrel, which operated regularly in the early 60s on our route 15 (Ilkeston – Long Eaton – Sawley).

Stephen Ford

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16/05/12 – 07:52

Not sure why this style was followed but Widnes also did the same thing on their vehicles

Chris Hough

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16/05/12 – 07:52

Widnes Corporation used the same arrangement which I can only assume was to give upper-deck passengers a choice of the fresh-air treatment by sitting on the nearside or for the more delicate a chance to keep out of the draught by sitting on the offside.
I don’t recall the arrangement being used by any other operators and it certainly spoiled the appearance of the vehicles.
I would be interested to learn if my assumption is correct.

Philip Halstead

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16/05/12 – 08:58

Just clutching at straws, but I wonder if the odd window arrangement could possibly be to avoid a direct "wind tunnel" effect from the offside windscreen and down the staircase, to escape from the platform.

Chris Youhill

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17/05/12 – 08:40

Having lived in Widnes in the 70s, Widnes Corporation were not doing their passengers any favours with all the chemical factories in the area!

Jim Hepburn

The Northern General Transport Company
1964
AEC-Park Royal Routemaster
Park Royal H41/31F

Pictured at the Seaburn Bus Rally, this 1964 Routemaster has been beautifully restored to its original livery and is now part of the North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd collection; it was one of the second batch to be delivered. I know the two batches differed slightly, but I’m not sure if it was only that the first ones had rear wheel spats. Prior to the Routmasters, the last front engine half cabs to carry the Northern name were the 1958 PD3′s with Orion bodies ‘Sunderland District’s were rear door Burlingham bodies’ before the Routemasters arrived on the scene their were then three or possibly four batches of PDR1 Atlanteans with both MCW and Roe bodies. Northern ran a lot of longer routes alongside United, when they introduced the front entrance Bristol Lodekkas Northern decided it was time to replace the rear door Park Royal bodied PD2′s on these routes with a more modern vehicle, but rather than use Atlanteans they bought the Routemasters specifically for the purpose. I think reliability may have been a factor as the early Atlanteans were ‘A tad temperamental’ Northern specified the Leyland O600 engine and the same gearing as the Green Line RMC’s, as far as I’m aware they gave excellent service and reliability was never a problem. Our depot didn’t have any so I must be one of the few drivers at Percy Main to have driven one on service, I was on the number 1 which ran between Whitley Bay and Lobbly Hill Gateshead, my bus ‘an Atlantean’ broke down at Team Valley and a replacement was sent out from Bensham depot, it turned out to be a Routemaster. I only drove it for a couple of hours but found it a very nice vehicle to drive.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

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13/05/12 – 08:41

…..and I spent many a happy hour driving AEC and Leyland engined ex LT RMs in Reading for Reading Mainline. I now have the occasional charge of a preserved green RML. Still nice to drive but unfortunately, like most RMLs, re-engined.

David Oldfield

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13/05/12 – 18:49

What make was/were the replacement engine(s) and did the conversion entail any gearbox/transmission changes, David? In the back of my mind, Iveco comes to mind.

Chris Hebbron

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14/05/12 – 07:43

There several experiments using Cummins C (Javelin 8.2), Scania (9.2), DAF (?) and IVECO (7) engines. DAF never got beyond the one experimental, the others went into "mass" production. I don’t know the numbers, nor how it was decided to allocate which engines to which (batches of) vehicles.
These vehicles tended to keep their AEC/LT (semi)automatic gear-change. The vehicle I regularly drive – and will be doing so next week in Slough – is a 1966 RML with IVECO engine with original gearbox which still operates in either semi or fully automatic modes.
From the cab it is very obviously a re-engine although, surprisingly, from the saloon it sounds more like a "proper" vehicle. I can only surmise that this is because it still has the original gearbox. It does not, however, have the performance of an AV590 or 0.600 – nor the real sound.
The last refurbishments, however, were also made to comply with "Euro…" regulations and have the Cummins B (5.9) engine and Allison fully automatic gearbox both found on the Dennis Dart. They are therefore cruelly, but aptly, known as "Dartmasters". The latter have also totally changed the character of the cab.

David Oldfield

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14/05/12 – 09:29

Thanks, David, for that interesting background information. It’s also interesting that the original engines performed better than their replacements. Maybe some of it is strapping the engines up with ‘save the world’ technology, understandable, but not conducive to performance or fuel consumption!

Chris Hebbron

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14/05/12 – 14:57

As a P.S. to my comments above. It’s all speculation, but given the reputation for build quality and reliability that the Routemaster built up with Northern, I think it’s safe to assume that if the RML had gone into production AEC would have loaned a couple to Northern for evaluation purposes, then who knows?

Ronnie Hoye

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14/05/12 – 18:30

Ronnie; do you mean RML or FRM? The Northerns were front entrance RMLs (or RMFs in London language). FRM1 was the rear-engined prototype which Leyland knocked on the head because it competed with its own new Atlantean.
There should have been three prototype FRMs – one of the other in Sheffield Transport colours. Alan Townsin said that both Yorkshire Traction and Northern General had already shown an interest in the new model "off the drawing board". Having tested it for "Bus and Coach" in August 1967 he concluded that "…..the general impression was of a vehicle which made everything previous seem out of date, in much the same way as the RT in its day."

David Oldfield

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14/05/12 – 18:46

It’s an age thing David, I did mean the RMF

Ronnie Hoye

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15/05/12 – 07:34

It’s an age thing for most of us who use this site! What day is it nurse?

David Oldfield

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15/05/12 – 07:36

I wish I’d been issued with fingers instead of thumbs, FRM, the one that Leyland couldn’t wait to kill off, in much the same way that they did with the Fleetline, as the Americans say ‘if you can’t beat them, buy them’

Ronnie Hoye

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15/05/12 – 07:38

Chris, can I just point out that David’s comment about the performance of replacement engines was specific to IVECO, which was the smallest of the units in the original experiment. I recently had a ride on an RM with a Scania engine and it went like a bat out of hell! It also made some nice traditional sounds which were entirely compatible with the RM’s transmission.
As regards FRM1, this still exists of course, and it is very special. I once had the pleasure of riding on it, and it felt like meeting the Queen!

Peter Williamson

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15/05/12 – 13:31

Very interesting comments, David, on the FRM. I never saw the ‘Bus and Coach’ article, (yes, I ought to have seen it!), and have never seen any pictures of the prototypes, but it sounds as if it had great potential. Leyland, as Ronnie points out, were eager to kill off anything that competed with a Leyland product. Operationally, the Fleetline was a far better bet than early Atlanteans, being more economical and less expensive to maintain, and it would have been a boon to the industry to have had an AEC alternative, too. Leyland’s arrogance, which manifested itself in many ways at that time, was a tragedy for the whole of the British motor industry.

Roy Burke

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15/05/12 – 18:00

There were other interesting possibilities which Leyland killed at birth. The only really decent and successful rear-engined single-decker was the Bristol RE. It eventually had the option of Leyland engines (which I approve of) but another option "on the books" which was neither promoted nor taken up was of the AH691 AEC engine. Ulsterbus (and all offshoots) had shown a great interest in the AEC option but were dissuaded by Leyland from taking it up – just as later, New Zealand were "persuaded" to take the Leyland 510.

David Oldfield

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16/05/12 – 07:47

In some ways fitting a Scania engine into a Routemaster is the supreme irony. The Routemaster started life with AEC, they in turn became part of British Leyland ‘not to be confused with Leyland Motors’ At the time of the ‘merger’ AEC had designs for a new vehicle, but BL in their wisdom or otherwise decided not to go ahead with it, all the plans ‘including those for a new engine’ were sold to Saab and the result was the 80 and 100 series and every vehicle since, so I suppose you could argue that by using an AEC designed Scania engine in a Routemaster the wheel has in effect turned full circle

Ronnie Hoye

Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co
1945
Guy Arab II 
Northern Counties UH30/26R

I am, basically, a tram and trolleybus enthusiast, and, unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of sampling the delights of the LCBER. By 1955, money was in short supply, and the trams were just about worn away, and the company decided to switch to motorbus operation.
I did sample these, in 1956/7, and remember them with great affection. I think that the history of these buses, which succumbed to the mighty Crosville in 1961, has been largely overlooked, perhaps because of the nature of the tram to bus conversion, which was particularly noxious for a hard-core of true bred tramway enthusiasts!
There were a dozen or so ex Southdown utility Arab 11s (as shot above), with 3 makes of body, supplemented by 2 later East Kent examples. There was also an ex-East Kent TD5 used only for the initial phase of driver training, and 2 ex Newcastle NCB bodied Daimler COG5s of 1939 vintage. One of the latter was converted to open top in 1956, and there were plans to likewise convert some of the Guys. I can vividly remember riding on the Guys, which reminded me at the time, of Bristol K5Gs, probably because of the crunchy gear change, not always well executed, and the growl of the 5LW.
It would be very interesting to hear if other enthusiasts remember this fleet with the same affection as I do, and if there are any other photos out there!
I do have an exact fleet list should interest demand it!

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Whitaker

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11/05/12 – 08:09

Looks like Mostyn Street, Llandudno. Can anybody with more detailed knowledge of the area confirm or otherwise?

Stephen Ford

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11/05/12 – 09:38

This photo has brought very fond memories of by first visit to Llandudno in 1956. Seeing these Guy Arabs operating as an independent Tramway Company gave me a feeling of David and Goliath as Crosville seemed to be the main operator in the area.
For once I ignored the Crosville buses and rode on the LCBER buses to their depot at Rhos-on-Sea where a few trams still remained in the yard. I have always found bus companies operating with Tramway names fascinating as they reflect a proud heritage. How many other bus companies were operating with Tramway Company names in the fifties? Sadly LCBER was taken over by Crosville in 1961.

Richard Fieldhouse

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11/05/12 – 12:00

One company that springs to mind is the Northern subsidiary Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads. A title they kept until they disappeared into the parent company in the seventies.

Chris Hough

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12/05/12 – 07:44

I think Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company Limited was not renamed Bristol Omnibus Company Limited until the 1950s. Now First Somerset & Avon Limited it must surely be one of the oldest legal entities in the public transport field still operating as it was incorporated on October 1st 1887

Nigel Turner

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12/05/12 – 07:46

Great posting and wonderful photo John, thanks very much. It just goes to show that many of the most interesting items on OBP are about lesser known operators, and LCBER are an excellent example of that. They were clearly very cost conscious, buying wartime bodied Guy Arabs; many operators had rebodied such vehicles years earlier, and 11/12 year old ones were hardly in the first flush of youth. It’s also interesting that they bought a Leyland TD5 for driver training when they had no Leylands in service, as is the decision to buy the two Daimlers with, presumably, pre-selector gearboxes, amongst the (very) crash gearbox Guys. And how did passengers react to the replacement of smooth and quiet electric traction with trundling 5LW’s? A final question, John – what was LCBER’s livery? It looks smart in your photo, I must say.

Roy Burke

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12/05/12 – 07:49

I can remember Bristol, and Bath Tramways in the 1950s when I was stationed at RAF Yatesbury in Wiltshire.

Jim Hepburn

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12/05/12 – 07:51

I think this bus’s registration is GUF 153, which was Southdown’s 453, a Guy Arab II, 5LW. (Ch: FD27379), built Feb 1945. Its Northern Counties body (3737) started as H30/26R, was rebuilt to H28/26R and re-engined as a 6LW in Dec 1950, then re-engined to 5LW again prior to withdrawal and sale in July 1956. It was one to escape being converted to an open-topper, like many of its cousins.
Whether they realised it or not, they bought wisely with a Guy with Northern Counties bodies, who were given dispensation during the war to build metal-framed bodies, which would have given them far longer lives then their ‘green’-wood, wooden-framed cousins. The windows were rather shallow and out-of-proportion, but they were still rather handsome beasts and looked just as nice beheaded!

Chris Hebbron

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12/05/12 – 07:53

Sadly, Chris, the Tyneside and Tramroads name was abandoned in 1965 and thereafter the rather more prosaic Tyneside Omnibus Company had to suffice until it became one of the last Northern subsidiaries (along with Gateshead) to be fully absorbed in, I think, 1976.

Alan Hall

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12/05/12 – 08:15

Apologies for the wrong registration GUF 351. Later access to a fleet list, and closer perusal of the photo, has shown this bus to be GUF 159.
As Stephen says, it is in Mostyn Street, Llandudno as far as I can tell.
This bus was the second No.3, being purchased in 1957, to replace an identical vehicle, original No.3, GUF 128.
The Northern Counties bodied examples were metal framed, and this would explain the earlier withdrawal of these buses compared to their Weymann and Park Royal sisters. It would have been much easier for former tramway engineers to maintain a composite body! I understand that a bus fleet list for LCBER will shortly be included in the fleet list section

John Whitaker

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12/05/12 – 17:15

Didn’t Bath Electric Tramways and Bath Tramways Motor Co survive until c.1972, when absorbed into BOC?

Philip Rushworth

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12/05/12 – 17:26

Just to answer Roy`s question about the LCBER bus livery; this was a deep crimson and cream, being the original tram colours from opening in 1907, until the green livery was adopted in the mid 1920s
I presume they did not continue with the green livery after tramway abandonment, in order to differentiate their vehicles from the Tilling green of Crosville.
As Richard says, it was also very unusual for me too, to let Bristols go by, but this was a notable and worthy exception!

John Whitaker